Morally, Israel has the right to be wrong. Hamas is simply evil all the time. No number of dead Jews will assuage the conscience of those who embrace the fiction of a Palestinian state.
When is the last time the Saudis had elections? We still recognize their gov't.
It just seemed odd to me that we should think that Hamas is the only option for statehood, and we should dismiss statehood because Hamas is a bad actor unsuitable as a ruling partner (I agree on that point re: Hamas), when the PA is there not kidnapping and murdering folks.(Recently at least?)
Saudi Arabia is a kingdom, ruled by a King. The Oslo accords expect the PA to hold elections but they only held one. So much for a trusted peace partner.
Looking at the aggressive settler behavior in the West Bank, let's not pretend that either side holds the Oslo Accords as something other than a historical curiosity.
That said, you're dodging around my question about why the PA is automatically ineligible to be the initial gov't of a Palestinian state. It's pretty clear why Hamas can be ruled out, but that doesn't disqualify the PA by association.
It’s not ineligible. But it must be acceptable by Israel and it has given Israel no reason to hold it trustworthy. In fact over the years it has actively undermined any trust.
The Soviet Union was the first country to recognize Israel, not the US. The US responded by recognizing the state, but then also placing an arms embargo that lasted until 1967.
The PLO recognized Israel in 1993 as part of the Oslo Accords. Israel has never reciprocated.
Hamas's existence does not change that Palestinian people have the right to self-determination and their own country. Hamas must be removed but again: Palestinian ≠ Hamas or terrorist.
It is entirely possible to recognize the right of both to exist without requiring any delegitimization of the other.
Will it be hard? Yes. Is it necessary, and the only moral way forward? Yes.
de facto is also legal. It’s a different type of recognition. De facto is provisional. De jure involves exchange of ambassadors. Either one is legal and with new regimes both are important.
Recognizing a State for the Palestinians necessarily means dividing the land that God almighty gave to the Jews. If that ever happens, it's Katy bar the door on God's response, and it won't be pretty for those responsible for the travesty.
You're missing the point of my question: Why do you think THIS time is THE time? Is there something in Scripture that THIS time fulfills that past times have or future times will not? Why do you think that THIS incarnation of the nation of Israel is the one that fulfills the prophetic requirements?
I didn't miss the point of your question, all one has to do is read the prophets and the words of Jesus to come to the conclusion I come to. Not to mention biblical scholars who have good track records in eschatology. Israel was recognized as a nation in 1948. Ever since then any number of Arab/Muslim countries/organizations have tried to drive them off that little sliver of land, but have been hugely unsuccessful in their attempts. This says to me, and many others, that this iteration of Israel has had help from above. I have read many accounts of the heroism and downright miraculous results of the 1967 war, the Yom Kippur war, and the war just after Israel raised their flag over the land. It can only be the hand of God that led them through those wars and resulting conquests. And at some point after what the Bible calls "the time of Jacob's trouble," Israel will be given the rest of their promised land, which stretches from the Euphrates river to the Mediterranean, and from Syria to Saudi Arabia.
I see no discussion here of the Palestinian Authority who are governing the West Bank and non-Gaza Palestinian areas.
Why are they omitted from this conversation? Why are they excluded as an avenue towards achieving Palestinian statehood?
Because they don’t run Gaza. And when was the last time the PA had, umm, elections?
When is the last time the Saudis had elections? We still recognize their gov't.
It just seemed odd to me that we should think that Hamas is the only option for statehood, and we should dismiss statehood because Hamas is a bad actor unsuitable as a ruling partner (I agree on that point re: Hamas), when the PA is there not kidnapping and murdering folks.(Recently at least?)
Saudi Arabia is a kingdom, ruled by a King. The Oslo accords expect the PA to hold elections but they only held one. So much for a trusted peace partner.
Looking at the aggressive settler behavior in the West Bank, let's not pretend that either side holds the Oslo Accords as something other than a historical curiosity.
That said, you're dodging around my question about why the PA is automatically ineligible to be the initial gov't of a Palestinian state. It's pretty clear why Hamas can be ruled out, but that doesn't disqualify the PA by association.
It’s not ineligible. But it must be acceptable by Israel and it has given Israel no reason to hold it trustworthy. In fact over the years it has actively undermined any trust.
Collective punishment?
The Soviet Union was the first country to recognize Israel, not the US. The US responded by recognizing the state, but then also placing an arms embargo that lasted until 1967.
The PLO recognized Israel in 1993 as part of the Oslo Accords. Israel has never reciprocated.
Hamas's existence does not change that Palestinian people have the right to self-determination and their own country. Hamas must be removed but again: Palestinian ≠ Hamas or terrorist.
It is entirely possible to recognize the right of both to exist without requiring any delegitimization of the other.
Will it be hard? Yes. Is it necessary, and the only moral way forward? Yes.
You are wrong in your history. President Harry Truman recognized Israel de facto first, followed a few hours later by the USSR.
De fact vs de jure. Which is more important? I'd argue the legal recognition.
de facto is also legal. It’s a different type of recognition. De facto is provisional. De jure involves exchange of ambassadors. Either one is legal and with new regimes both are important.
More that de facto is a provisional acknowledgement of reality on the ground rather than binding legal recognition of legitimacy.
Recognizing a State for the Palestinians necessarily means dividing the land that God almighty gave to the Jews. If that ever happens, it's Katy bar the door on God's response, and it won't be pretty for those responsible for the travesty.
Why would dividing it this time be any different than the times it was divided in the past?
Because this time God has brought the Jews back into the land that He gave them 4,000+ years ago, never to be displaced or divided again.
You're missing the point of my question: Why do you think THIS time is THE time? Is there something in Scripture that THIS time fulfills that past times have or future times will not? Why do you think that THIS incarnation of the nation of Israel is the one that fulfills the prophetic requirements?
I didn't miss the point of your question, all one has to do is read the prophets and the words of Jesus to come to the conclusion I come to. Not to mention biblical scholars who have good track records in eschatology. Israel was recognized as a nation in 1948. Ever since then any number of Arab/Muslim countries/organizations have tried to drive them off that little sliver of land, but have been hugely unsuccessful in their attempts. This says to me, and many others, that this iteration of Israel has had help from above. I have read many accounts of the heroism and downright miraculous results of the 1967 war, the Yom Kippur war, and the war just after Israel raised their flag over the land. It can only be the hand of God that led them through those wars and resulting conquests. And at some point after what the Bible calls "the time of Jacob's trouble," Israel will be given the rest of their promised land, which stretches from the Euphrates river to the Mediterranean, and from Syria to Saudi Arabia.
If you truly believed that you would demand the US cut all aid. As all that does is take from the glory of god.
Quite the contrary, as the Bible says that those who bless Israel will be blessed by God, and those who curse Israel will be cursed by God.