There's been volumes written and spoken regarding this matter. The left are vilifying him, the right are ignoring his transgressions and pretending it's a hoax and a witch hunt. I think it all can be resolved by either party as to which statement is the truth. He had classified documents he had no legal right to and so this is the litmus test: "Did he know he had them?" Or, "He did know he had them."
If the latter is the case, he's guilty as charged. Thanks for making the case David because based on the evidence presented, there should not be a doubt from anyone.
Fine. We'll go back and prosecute Hillary, which should have been done at the time. However, the indictment here, if the evidence holds, shows that Trump acted with mens rea, the intent to flout the law. Nobody can do that, especially someone running for president. He's not running for dictator, or king. If this nation elects Trump or the GOP nominates him, they will be committing an act of sedition against our democratic, law-based institutions.
I do think that Hillary should have been prosecuted. Not so much for Biden and Pence (let's not forget him). They did the right thing and cooperated when docs were discovered.
Interestingly, Trump isn't being prosecuted for the docs that he turned over voluntarily.
The key difference is Trump's decision to obstruct and lie.
You really do not know when the documents were discovered. You just know what they and their lawyers claimed. You choose to believe them. I just know what would have happened to me had I been that careless.
Yeah, maybe. It is obvious they were out to get him, but he did make it easy for them to do so while they ignored other's violations. I'm not at all sure compliance with a subpoena would have mattered in the long run.
Some were out to get him, just like some were out to get Obama and Biden and Hillary.
The difference is that Trump broke the law where the investigators don't seem to be able to find evidence that Obama and Biden did (maybe just not yet). Same applies to Hillary outside the server case, which was Comey's doing. And Comey was a Republican who Trump initially said good things about.
I do not really care what good things Trump might have said about Comey or what party Comey claimed. Trump negligently or deliberately broke the law as did Biden and the others I mentioned. They all deserve the same treatment.
"I didn't pack those documents and had no intent to take them"
Easy to create doubt regarding intent with a jury, especially when all available evidence cannot prove otherwise. If they had the evidence to charge they would.
I cannot imagine anyone failing to secure Secret and Top-Secret materials they are entrusted with I've been there. Just so the law is applied equally. At least five years each for Bill, Hillary, General Petraeus, Trump, Pence and Biden. I would add Carter to the list, but he is under hospice care. Obama managed to get the GSA and National Archives to take the fall for transgressions under his direction. There are no excuses for negligence of this magnitude. Add five years to Trump's sentence for poor attitude.
It's not just mishandling, it's intent that matters (per the laws).
Intent is the issue with Hillary's case and why she wasn't charged. They just couldn't find enough evidence to prove the case in a courtroom - hence no charges.
Biden and Pence have the benefit of the above claim, and their actions when said materials were found shows the lack of intent.
We undoubtedly need better systems to prevent classified material from being so easily taken - whether intentionally or not.
"(f)Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both."
So the Secretary of State had no idea of what information was in her email or on her illegal server. She simply gave access to her flunkies with no training or controls. Sounds like the very definition of gross negligence.
The State Department investigated (no one's ass on the line there) and found no deliberate mishandling but did not address gross negligence and incompetence. I call BS.
Why didn't Trump just return the docs when requested?
You should actually read the indictment: it's damning, and Trump gave basically no other option than to charge him - from his own decisions and actions.
Solid podcast unpacking the indictment:
https://thedispatch.com/podcast/advisoryopinions/quick-hit-trump-indicted-in-classified-docs-probe/
It's pretty clear that Nauta and Cobb's lives are ruined by this. Trump couldn't care less.
There's been volumes written and spoken regarding this matter. The left are vilifying him, the right are ignoring his transgressions and pretending it's a hoax and a witch hunt. I think it all can be resolved by either party as to which statement is the truth. He had classified documents he had no legal right to and so this is the litmus test: "Did he know he had them?" Or, "He did know he had them."
If the latter is the case, he's guilty as charged. Thanks for making the case David because based on the evidence presented, there should not be a doubt from anyone.
Thank you, David. On a lighter note, you noticed the bathroom chandelier while I noticed the cheap shower rod and curtain. Ha! Ha!
Oh ok?! So Biden and Pence and Hillary can have classified documents with no consequences and Trump - not allowed. 2 sets of rules!
Fine. We'll go back and prosecute Hillary, which should have been done at the time. However, the indictment here, if the evidence holds, shows that Trump acted with mens rea, the intent to flout the law. Nobody can do that, especially someone running for president. He's not running for dictator, or king. If this nation elects Trump or the GOP nominates him, they will be committing an act of sedition against our democratic, law-based institutions.
Negligence is the criteria - not intent.
Provide the code you're looking at.
I do think that Hillary should have been prosecuted. Not so much for Biden and Pence (let's not forget him). They did the right thing and cooperated when docs were discovered.
Interestingly, Trump isn't being prosecuted for the docs that he turned over voluntarily.
The key difference is Trump's decision to obstruct and lie.
You really do not know when the documents were discovered. You just know what they and their lawyers claimed. You choose to believe them. I just know what would have happened to me had I been that careless.
I encourage you to read the indictment. There are a lot of smoking guns.
"When Trump left office, he had a defense against charges that he willfully retained classified material — he had other people packing his boxes.
If Trump returned the docs when asked, he wouldn’t have been charged.
His own actions after DOJ sought the documents got him charged.
Anyone comparing this situation to Pence or Biden (or Hillary) is dishonest or ignorant.
This is not a case about “mishandling” or inadvertently possessing documents.
The government asked politely. They issued a subpoena. Failure to return the docs at that point was “willful.”"
Yeah, maybe. It is obvious they were out to get him, but he did make it easy for them to do so while they ignored other's violations. I'm not at all sure compliance with a subpoena would have mattered in the long run.
Some were out to get him, just like some were out to get Obama and Biden and Hillary.
The difference is that Trump broke the law where the investigators don't seem to be able to find evidence that Obama and Biden did (maybe just not yet). Same applies to Hillary outside the server case, which was Comey's doing. And Comey was a Republican who Trump initially said good things about.
I do not really care what good things Trump might have said about Comey or what party Comey claimed. Trump negligently or deliberately broke the law as did Biden and the others I mentioned. They all deserve the same treatment.
"I didn't pack those documents and had no intent to take them"
Easy to create doubt regarding intent with a jury, especially when all available evidence cannot prove otherwise. If they had the evidence to charge they would.
If he had just returned the requested docs then there wouldn't have been any charges related to the documents.
January 6 and Georgia are separate issues. Those charges are still likely coming.
I cannot imagine anyone failing to secure Secret and Top-Secret materials they are entrusted with I've been there. Just so the law is applied equally. At least five years each for Bill, Hillary, General Petraeus, Trump, Pence and Biden. I would add Carter to the list, but he is under hospice care. Obama managed to get the GSA and National Archives to take the fall for transgressions under his direction. There are no excuses for negligence of this magnitude. Add five years to Trump's sentence for poor attitude.
It's not just mishandling, it's intent that matters (per the laws).
Intent is the issue with Hillary's case and why she wasn't charged. They just couldn't find enough evidence to prove the case in a courtroom - hence no charges.
Biden and Pence have the benefit of the above claim, and their actions when said materials were found shows the lack of intent.
We undoubtedly need better systems to prevent classified material from being so easily taken - whether intentionally or not.
"(f)Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both."
From: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793
And custodians have been imprisoned such offenses.
And per Comey, Hillary had no knowledge that that info was on her email server.
And in two investigations under the Trump Admin they still didn't find her responsible for mishandling info.
Knowledge matters.
So: I could see that if it had been tried that she might have been found "guilty" of a technical nature and maybe fined. Slap on the wrist.
Trump wilfully discussed hiding and moving boxes around. It's not comparable, and the past is ultimately irrelevant to Trump's case.
So the Secretary of State had no idea of what information was in her email or on her illegal server. She simply gave access to her flunkies with no training or controls. Sounds like the very definition of gross negligence.
The State Department investigated (no one's ass on the line there) and found no deliberate mishandling but did not address gross negligence and incompetence. I call BS.
The SoS was unaware of any classified info being on said server, as emails that contained said info were sent to her without marking. Go look it up.
You're calling BS on the Trump Admin too, btw. And they had a vested interest in prosecuting her if they could.
https://open.substack.com/pub/jseaman/p/crossing-the-rubicon-the-final-overt?r=x1jw&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
Why didn't Trump just return the docs when requested?
You should actually read the indictment: it's damning, and Trump gave basically no other option than to charge him - from his own decisions and actions.