Does anyone really think that Speaker Mike Johnson, who carried enough water for Donald Trump’s stolen election lie in 2020 to float a casino riverboat, is going to make a deal on the border or protect Ukraine while Trump is running in 2024?
My sentiments exactly SGman. However the Gang of Eight's legislation had way more of a chance of passing back then than it does today. The far right in the House has no interest in any deals; no interest in any solutions on any of the problems. Their vision has nothing to do with governing, only with "winning."
It is so disturbing to watch the vacuum in leadership as those elected used to be the stewards and the statesmen who worked together for the good of the country. Today the only goal on the right is for the good of the party. Even worse, "good of the party" has been replaced by the question, "what's good for donald trump?" How pathetic is that?
Like Biden, or hate Biden, he's tried to work the mushy middle. All too often righties voted against bills only to return to their home states to crow about how they were able to benefit those who voted for them. Talk about disingenuous.
Like everything since that fateful day the orange guy came down the elevator, norms have been shattered and life as we knew it is long gone. So freaking tragic.
Still: Schumer could put it to a vote in the Senate, and get the GOP on record for supporting/declining immigration reform. It's something of a win no matter what: if it gets shot down in either the Senate or House then that shows the GOP isn't interested in fixing the system; or it gets passed and we fix the system.
The US is already north of $100 billion in aide to Ukraine. How much do you suggest we continue to throw their way? Is there a limit or does this just keep up indefinitely? Negotiate for peace and end this bloodshed.
It isn’t up to us to negotiate for peace and Putin has shown no interest in a negotiated peace. The Ukrainians won’t stop fighting, even without aid, but shutting off aid would encourage the Russians (and is already doing so). Shutting off aid prolongs the war and increases innocent bloodshed.
Additionally, most aid money stays here in orders for weapons and equipment from US companies so it helps our economy.
Well it definitely helps the defense contractors. Look up information on Transdigm for example. They were only one of the defense contractors that US taxpayers were basically backed into a corner to enrich and I know this first hand from my years of government contracting. And they are no where near the only ones. So yes they all have great incentive to lobby Congress for continual aide.
MAGA is really going through contortions to blame Ukraine on America. It really reminds me of Rush Limbaugh talking about the Blame America First crowd on the left, but the GOP has changed.
Defense contractors profit but the war isn’t their fault. They are providing a service.
The war is no one’s fault except Putin’s. He ordered the invasion and he refuses to quit.
The Ukrainians are merely defending their country and the weapons we provide allow them to do so effectively. They would still be fighting if they only had knives, but it would be at much higher cost.
There’s lots of irony here, beginning with the fact that it has historically been the left that demonized defense contractors.
It’s also ironic that conservatives/Republicans have spent decades looking for indigenous forces that would effectively defend themselves without American boots on the ground. We didn’t find that it Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Nicaragua and elsewhere. Now that we’ve found them in Ukraine, Republicans want to sell them out.
Further, Republicans blamed Biden for losing Ukraine, but Ukraine stubbornly refused to be lost. Republicans are now trying to self-fulfill their prophecy by cutting off aid.
In my 50 years, I don’t think I’ve ever heard of Republicans being upset that defense contractors are making money before.
I agree it’s a mess but the example I provided of Transdigm was long before Ukraine and has nothing to do with MAGA which by the way for the record I am not a part of. I know two acquaintances who are from Ukraine and still have family over there and based on what they are tell me they hear from their families not everyone is gun ho for this fight nor are we hearing the full story. As I’m sure you are aware there are portions of the Ukraine population that identify as Russian. If statistics are to be believed 82% of Crimea are Russian. As we also know from the Minsk agreements this division is not new and I think there may indeed have been an opportunity to attempt additional peace agreements. Also even though I am not involved with MAGA all we heard from many of our elected leaders along with our state sponsored media for these past several years is how we must confront fascism wherever we find it and yet now many of these same leaders can’t wait to continue to send our finite resources to military units that are part of a Nazi Social National Party some of which now hold key government positions in Ukraine. Maybe we can follow Canada’s lead and invite some of them over to the US congress to be feted. As far as our defense contractors go rest assured they most definitely are making a profit. I think we will no doubt remain on separate sides of the tracks on this issue, but I don’t hold just one party responsible. I think there is enough blame (and money) to go around for everyone.
I don't agree that a negotiated peace settlement would be appeasing Putin and from where I sit, it doesn't look like Ukraine is stopping Russia, so again what is the endgame or is there one? Do the US taxpayers continue to fund this war and if so what's the cutoff? How much is finally too much both in money and blood? I respect your opinion, but where this issue is concerned cannot agree with it.
Yes. War is not moral. And the NATO policy of sacrificing Ukraine to prevent a wider war is causing great suffering for Ukraine. That being said supporting Ukraine to stop Putin is better than giving him what he wants. Sooner it ends the better, as long as Ukraine can survive and Russia contained.
You are sitting exactly where Putin wants you to look. He’s showing the west a Potemkin war, for us to see. Putin’s tactics are unsustainable unless the west tires of providing weapons and ammunition to Ukraine. Putin has been successful so far but he can’t continue those tactics as a strategy. We (the U.S.) get a 10:1 (1000%) return on Ukraine aid right now. Settling for “peace” where Putin keeps 20%+ of Ukraine guarantees we will fight this war again within 5 years and then we won’t have an advantage. Stay the course and Putin will lose.
Maybe you are right, but I truly believe that the only way this will end is thru a negotiated peace agreement with Russia. In my mind if that is the the only realistic exit strategy then why not act on it sooner rather then later. So the question that still remains for me at least is what the final cost will end up being. I'm also not convinced there is all that much of a US advantage at this point. The US munitions supply is shrinking rapidly and our source of defense contractors has been greatly diminished and as a former contracting officer for the military I can tell you that replenishing our stock for mission readiness does not happen overnight. With China and Iran added into the mix, we cannot sustain the status quo indefinitely as our position will also weaken. I don't trust Putin at all, but unfortunately I also have very little faith or trust that the news that comes from our MSM via their government sources is being straight with us either. I hope you are right, but honestly I just can't see Putin ever allowing a losing exit without unleashing a horrendous price on his way out the door.
At this point, there is no negotiation that Ukraine will accept. Ukraine has lost thousands of citizens, suffered forced relocation of its children, and has had its cities razed to the ground. Russia will never agree to terms of war reparations, and if Putin does agree to a demilitarized Donbas, he will break that agreement as he did with previous agreements (Minsk I and II). Ukraine wants nothing short of full restoration of its borders and the return of Crimea. Of course, if the west stops supplying war materiel to Ukraine, Russia will simply grind down the UKR and then get the agreement of its dreams. Stopping is akin to surrender.
It really is not: we are giving old, already paid for items.
Continuing to give said aid is a much lower price than having to put our soldiers in the field when Putin invades a NATO ally. That will trigger a true WWII.
Well Congress has already allocated at least $75 billion including not just in military but also in humanitarian and financial. If they don’t spend it within the fiscal year it has been allocated they will lose it. I still feel at some point a peace settlement will be necessary. Without that I am not at all hopeful that the price Russia enacts for losing this war would be an outcome any of us would want to live with. I have already included my concerns in my comments to Steve Berman and factoring in the surplus material or not does not change them. As I told Jay I can respect your opinion, but cannot agree with it.
I think this is the most true thing you've said: you fear what happens if Russia loses more than what will happen to Ukrainians - or the cost of Russia's winning.
Russia is a nuclear power and if the use of that type of weapon becomes a reality in this conflict it won’t be just the Ukrainians who will pay a price.
All the more reason to see their defeat via Ukraine now. Russia won't use one in Ukraine. They'll instantly lose all support from their "allies".
They will if/when there is a direct conflict with NATO and we obliterate their military on the way to Moscow. That's part of their defensive strategy dating back to the USSR.
It would be possible to have all of that and more if it were our spending priority. What the democrats want is capitulation. They will never agree to forgoing the progressive social programs, the green new deal, the "inflation reduction act", adding 100,000 employees to the federal payroll, student loan forgiveness, the useless Department of Education and other government agencies and dozens of other wasteful practices.
Does anyone really think that Speaker Mike Johnson, who carried enough water for Donald Trump’s stolen election lie in 2020 to float a casino riverboat, is going to make a deal on the border or protect Ukraine while Trump is running in 2024?
The problem this week was McConnell. Getting him on board might be enough, especially if Israeli aid is in the same bill.
No.
They should dust off the 2013 immigration bill from the Gang of Eight and make some updates if necessary.
My sentiments exactly SGman. However the Gang of Eight's legislation had way more of a chance of passing back then than it does today. The far right in the House has no interest in any deals; no interest in any solutions on any of the problems. Their vision has nothing to do with governing, only with "winning."
It is so disturbing to watch the vacuum in leadership as those elected used to be the stewards and the statesmen who worked together for the good of the country. Today the only goal on the right is for the good of the party. Even worse, "good of the party" has been replaced by the question, "what's good for donald trump?" How pathetic is that?
Like Biden, or hate Biden, he's tried to work the mushy middle. All too often righties voted against bills only to return to their home states to crow about how they were able to benefit those who voted for them. Talk about disingenuous.
Like everything since that fateful day the orange guy came down the elevator, norms have been shattered and life as we knew it is long gone. So freaking tragic.
Still: Schumer could put it to a vote in the Senate, and get the GOP on record for supporting/declining immigration reform. It's something of a win no matter what: if it gets shot down in either the Senate or House then that shows the GOP isn't interested in fixing the system; or it gets passed and we fix the system.
The US is already north of $100 billion in aide to Ukraine. How much do you suggest we continue to throw their way? Is there a limit or does this just keep up indefinitely? Negotiate for peace and end this bloodshed.
It isn’t up to us to negotiate for peace and Putin has shown no interest in a negotiated peace. The Ukrainians won’t stop fighting, even without aid, but shutting off aid would encourage the Russians (and is already doing so). Shutting off aid prolongs the war and increases innocent bloodshed.
Additionally, most aid money stays here in orders for weapons and equipment from US companies so it helps our economy.
Well it definitely helps the defense contractors. Look up information on Transdigm for example. They were only one of the defense contractors that US taxpayers were basically backed into a corner to enrich and I know this first hand from my years of government contracting. And they are no where near the only ones. So yes they all have great incentive to lobby Congress for continual aide.
MAGA is really going through contortions to blame Ukraine on America. It really reminds me of Rush Limbaugh talking about the Blame America First crowd on the left, but the GOP has changed.
Defense contractors profit but the war isn’t their fault. They are providing a service.
The war is no one’s fault except Putin’s. He ordered the invasion and he refuses to quit.
The Ukrainians are merely defending their country and the weapons we provide allow them to do so effectively. They would still be fighting if they only had knives, but it would be at much higher cost.
There’s lots of irony here, beginning with the fact that it has historically been the left that demonized defense contractors.
It’s also ironic that conservatives/Republicans have spent decades looking for indigenous forces that would effectively defend themselves without American boots on the ground. We didn’t find that it Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Nicaragua and elsewhere. Now that we’ve found them in Ukraine, Republicans want to sell them out.
Further, Republicans blamed Biden for losing Ukraine, but Ukraine stubbornly refused to be lost. Republicans are now trying to self-fulfill their prophecy by cutting off aid.
In my 50 years, I don’t think I’ve ever heard of Republicans being upset that defense contractors are making money before.
I agree it’s a mess but the example I provided of Transdigm was long before Ukraine and has nothing to do with MAGA which by the way for the record I am not a part of. I know two acquaintances who are from Ukraine and still have family over there and based on what they are tell me they hear from their families not everyone is gun ho for this fight nor are we hearing the full story. As I’m sure you are aware there are portions of the Ukraine population that identify as Russian. If statistics are to be believed 82% of Crimea are Russian. As we also know from the Minsk agreements this division is not new and I think there may indeed have been an opportunity to attempt additional peace agreements. Also even though I am not involved with MAGA all we heard from many of our elected leaders along with our state sponsored media for these past several years is how we must confront fascism wherever we find it and yet now many of these same leaders can’t wait to continue to send our finite resources to military units that are part of a Nazi Social National Party some of which now hold key government positions in Ukraine. Maybe we can follow Canada’s lead and invite some of them over to the US congress to be feted. As far as our defense contractors go rest assured they most definitely are making a profit. I think we will no doubt remain on separate sides of the tracks on this issue, but I don’t hold just one party responsible. I think there is enough blame (and money) to go around for everyone.
Appeasing Putin and giving him Ukraine will cost much more in the future. Let Ukraine stop Russia now.
I don't agree that a negotiated peace settlement would be appeasing Putin and from where I sit, it doesn't look like Ukraine is stopping Russia, so again what is the endgame or is there one? Do the US taxpayers continue to fund this war and if so what's the cutoff? How much is finally too much both in money and blood? I respect your opinion, but where this issue is concerned cannot agree with it.
Yes, we will have to disagree on this one. I think a wider war down the road will cost us more.
I'm sure that we can however agree that whatever happens, it ends sooner rather then later.
Yes. War is not moral. And the NATO policy of sacrificing Ukraine to prevent a wider war is causing great suffering for Ukraine. That being said supporting Ukraine to stop Putin is better than giving him what he wants. Sooner it ends the better, as long as Ukraine can survive and Russia contained.
You are sitting exactly where Putin wants you to look. He’s showing the west a Potemkin war, for us to see. Putin’s tactics are unsustainable unless the west tires of providing weapons and ammunition to Ukraine. Putin has been successful so far but he can’t continue those tactics as a strategy. We (the U.S.) get a 10:1 (1000%) return on Ukraine aid right now. Settling for “peace” where Putin keeps 20%+ of Ukraine guarantees we will fight this war again within 5 years and then we won’t have an advantage. Stay the course and Putin will lose.
Maybe you are right, but I truly believe that the only way this will end is thru a negotiated peace agreement with Russia. In my mind if that is the the only realistic exit strategy then why not act on it sooner rather then later. So the question that still remains for me at least is what the final cost will end up being. I'm also not convinced there is all that much of a US advantage at this point. The US munitions supply is shrinking rapidly and our source of defense contractors has been greatly diminished and as a former contracting officer for the military I can tell you that replenishing our stock for mission readiness does not happen overnight. With China and Iran added into the mix, we cannot sustain the status quo indefinitely as our position will also weaken. I don't trust Putin at all, but unfortunately I also have very little faith or trust that the news that comes from our MSM via their government sources is being straight with us either. I hope you are right, but honestly I just can't see Putin ever allowing a losing exit without unleashing a horrendous price on his way out the door.
At this point, there is no negotiation that Ukraine will accept. Ukraine has lost thousands of citizens, suffered forced relocation of its children, and has had its cities razed to the ground. Russia will never agree to terms of war reparations, and if Putin does agree to a demilitarized Donbas, he will break that agreement as he did with previous agreements (Minsk I and II). Ukraine wants nothing short of full restoration of its borders and the return of Crimea. Of course, if the west stops supplying war materiel to Ukraine, Russia will simply grind down the UKR and then get the agreement of its dreams. Stopping is akin to surrender.
That's mostly numbers on paper, not actual dollars given.
Remember, a HMMWV that is set to be scrapped or sold as surplus for ~$3k in the US is considered worth full export price when given to Ukraine.
The M2 Bradley AFVs that are set to be scrapped will cost us money in storage and disposal: send them over, they're worth a lot of money.
This applies for a great deal of what has been provided. Those that talk about the "dollar amount" without providing this info are being dishonest.
You make a valid point, but I wasn’t trying to be dishonest. Either way the cost remains too high.
It really is not: we are giving old, already paid for items.
Continuing to give said aid is a much lower price than having to put our soldiers in the field when Putin invades a NATO ally. That will trigger a true WWII.
Well Congress has already allocated at least $75 billion including not just in military but also in humanitarian and financial. If they don’t spend it within the fiscal year it has been allocated they will lose it. I still feel at some point a peace settlement will be necessary. Without that I am not at all hopeful that the price Russia enacts for losing this war would be an outcome any of us would want to live with. I have already included my concerns in my comments to Steve Berman and factoring in the surplus material or not does not change them. As I told Jay I can respect your opinion, but cannot agree with it.
I think this is the most true thing you've said: you fear what happens if Russia loses more than what will happen to Ukrainians - or the cost of Russia's winning.
Russia is a nuclear power and if the use of that type of weapon becomes a reality in this conflict it won’t be just the Ukrainians who will pay a price.
All the more reason to see their defeat via Ukraine now. Russia won't use one in Ukraine. They'll instantly lose all support from their "allies".
They will if/when there is a direct conflict with NATO and we obliterate their military on the way to Moscow. That's part of their defensive strategy dating back to the USSR.
It would be possible to have all of that and more if it were our spending priority. What the democrats want is capitulation. They will never agree to forgoing the progressive social programs, the green new deal, the "inflation reduction act", adding 100,000 employees to the federal payroll, student loan forgiveness, the useless Department of Education and other government agencies and dozens of other wasteful practices.