"They’d provide food and 'walking around money' to get voters to polls, purposely bring them to precincts where long lines form so they can get a judge to order polls to stay open longer, and leverage provisional ballots for people with no identification whatsoever."
As an election judge, this would piss me off to no end. First of all, there's a lot that you need to get done after the voting is finished, so getting that last voter through the process just kicks off another bunch of stressful work to be done, and the sooner it's done, the happier everyone is. And issuing provisional ballots is a major PITA. In my precinct, our provisional ballots are now done on the single touch-screen machine we have, so clogging up the lines with purposefully-provisional voters whose votes are meant to be thrown out is stupid and wastes everyone's time. To the extent this activity can be detected and the perpetrators be put in legal hot water, the better, as far as I'm concerned.
"Yes, yes, yes. But even worse than that is when the official organ of the state, the CDC, goes back to recommending masks for vaccinated people indoors. Are they daft? Are they mad?"
I live in Blue Chicago, and in the last week, it's become clear that lots of folks here are DONE with masks. The only place where I run into masking requirements these days is public transit and about half the riders are flouting the CTA mask mandate both outside (which doesn't bother me) and on the trains and buses themselves (which does). The CTA isn't enforcing their mandate, so it's entirely honor-system at this point, and based on the number of riders who couldn't give two sh!ts about their fellow riders, trying to re-establish mask mandates beyond the places where they're already being ignored is dead on arrival.
"The vaccination scolds are more concerned with being right than being compassionate, or empathetic to people who’ve been kicked around over their politics and their skepticism for four years. Clearly, the scold approach isn’t working and won’t work. Sympathy should be the response but we get blame instead."
The problem with this is that it's unclear how society can be more sympathetic and expect folks to do the right thing. We've extended the carrots for months now, and we are where we are now with a significant number of resisters who won't do the right thing - no matter how nice you are or how much you try to make them feel good about the shot. The only thing that will convince enough people to get the shot at this point will be the pain and suffering inflicted on their families and local communities, by which time, it'll be too late. Apparently modern germ science is too theoretical for a significant number of Americans to understand.
For what it's worth for those of you trying to get friends and family vaccinated, the ONLY thing that I've been able to get to work isn't being nice, reasonable arguments, etc., but telling them that they don't have to believe you or take your arguments seriously, but to TALK TO THEIR DOCTOR about the shot.
Now, this assumes that they have a decent relationship with their doctor. Encourage them to have that conversation - it's amazing how many folks have simply ignored or skipped that step - and let health professionals take it from there.
I agree. But I have learned to specify "medical doctor". Nothing against chiropractors, acupuncturists, massage therapists, their Reiki dude, essential oil expert, etc but they are not our friends at this moment. Many trust these folks more than their MD, if only because they see them more often.
I've got to admit Steve, this one threw me. I won't comment on Fulton County, you know Georgia better than I. I have no idea if what you are claiming is true or not, but the goal should be a system that works well...for both parties. Making voting as simple and as efficient is an outcome most states have managed to solve. Stupid "fixes" from either party are well, stupid.
I am more perplexed by this paragraph you wrote: "I understand that masks are the next best thing to vaccination in stopping the spread when herd immunity can’t be achieved. I understand that unvaccinated people will get very sick from the Delta variant, and that Delta seems to spread more easily than the original virus. All true. But we’re talking messaging and politics here, not right and wrong."
Sorry brother, but political messaging is well down my list of what this past year has been all about. In the case of diseases that killed over 600,000 American's my one concern is outcomes. And to be clear, that comes from "right and wrong."
Haranguing about messaging is just more fodder for the foolish. Nope, not calling anyone foolish, simply talking about nonsensical arguments that keep people from doing the right thing. Our only way out of this is herd immunity. We either get there with vaccinations or doubling or tripling the numbers already dead. What is the right choice?
And so we are clear, i did a search to see where masks have been mandated; not much there. I know, you couched this in "recommending masks for vaccinated people indoors"and provided the link. so let's be clear, it is a recommendation and in fact for counties that are facing % increases exceeding certain thresholds. Let me cap it; RECOMMENDATIONS.
You don't want to put one on don't. People refuse to get vaccinated, they won't. It's their choice, but if this once again runs rampant, then what? Are we still going to whine about "political messaging" or are we going to focus on "doing the right thing?"
Hopefully the experts are wrong, the increases they are seeing won't spike. Hopefully it will all "magically go away," (how's that for a political message BTW?). What we do know is we are in the "good times" of summer where folks are outside. When they bring it indoors, what do you expect"
I ask that in all seriousness. I read you in spite of what you write because most often; while i disagree, you are logical and consistent (fairly) in your comments and your positions. This is one of those times where your logic, given what is happening with the Delta variant, just plain misses the mark.
We have three choices: 1) FORCE people to be vaccinated under threat of criminal prosecution; 2) SEGREGATE unvaccinated through economic or social ostracizing...i.e. they lose their jobs and can't go anywhere; 3) CONVINCE people through proper MESSAGING. It seems many people in America believe #3 isn't worth their time or effort, and therefore would default to the first 2.
We've been trying 3 all year. Lotteries, ads, begging, facts. None of these things have worked. How long do you suggest we do this while this virus runs a muck? Do we have to wait until a new variant starts killing the vaccinated as well? Obviously you don't care about the vulnerable, so who do you care about?
Thanks for answering. Not sure why you feel there are only three solutions but let's start there. Don't see 1) as doable or reasonable. 2). I guess if you cap SEGREGATE it somehow negates private employers right to include vaccination (and in federal cases testing in lieu of getting it), as unreasonable. I happen to think it's an alternative that will in fact work. 3) Messaging is a fair option but how about if we start with the idiots on the right telling people not to get vaccinated? How about those media clowns on the right telling people not to get vaccinated? One thing for sure, that's not mixed messaging, that's just plain outright stupidity. I know, i'm being callused but it is what it is. I was going to pull up video clips but why bother? You've seen them i suspect.
Can Fauci et al do a better job. Sure, everyone can, starting with getting the FDA to remove the temporary approval for the vaccines. But let's get real; If there's 56% who have been fully vaccinated and another 44% who haven't, what % of those who haven't are simply doing it for political purposes? Because if it is significant, messaging by those on the left or by bureaucrats are meaningless. The only way they change are by those on the right being abundantly blunt and on point.
Interesting that you responded just as your favorite, Chis Cuomo, was on. Not a big fan, don't watch much but his point while debating messaging was simple: the abundantly clear message of late is "vaccines work" as do masks. Everything else is just an excuse not to do either.
Here is something to cheer about; there was a huge increase in those getting the vaccine today. Irrespective of which party you belong to, that's great news.
Fox News had Trump on 3 times telling people to get vaccinated. Fox & Friends hosts have all encouraged everyone to get vaccinated. A bigger influence is local churches and pastors who have come out vigorously against it. What can be done there? Not sure.
That problem will work itself out as more and more people realize that religion is a joke run by frauds and conmen. The vaccine example is just another in a long line.
I'm so sick of having the right tell me that I should be respectful for the idiots who are risking my life because of their stupidity. Or how we are the ones keeping them from taking the vaccine. It's such bull. You can not fix stupid. And there is a lot of stupid in this country.
My doctors told me not to even be near unvaccinated people. They told me to mask everywhere and to avoid large gatherings if I couldn't ensure everyone is vaccinated. So don't bring medical professionals into your stupid tirades about masks. Or complain when the CDC sees the new troubling data about Delta and reacts accordingly.
You wanna get people vaccinated then your going to have to make it hurt for them not too. Ban them from flights, stores, anywhere that isn't their houses. Force insurance companies to jack up their rates.
We are in this mess because of these idiots. It will get worse unless we actually make efforts that will work and "being nice" to them won't.
Better them than me. Hell you care more about their feelings than you do about people like me who are immuno-compromised. People like you are just as bad as any anti-vaxxer. So yeah, let them die.
Seen what, exactly? A "souls to the polls"-type bus? A bottle of water handed to someone? Boxes of ballots brought in a Toyota Corolla through a back door?
This entire piece is itself stupid in the morning, stupid in the evening, and at dawn, dusk, midnight and noon. Additionally, exactly how long are we supposed to emotionally coddle the "facts over feelings" crowd?? Another 85k to 100k deaths later? Will it be ok then to do some Real Talk with them? Vaccinated America is getting pissed with emotionally wounded toddlers' temper tantrums because they were called names for awhile. Grow up and do the right thing! It it abhorrent that we actually need masks in some areas because people are "sensitive".
Not one bit better, you? What about the immunocompromised that cannot be vaccinated? The children? The people with medical conditions? Is it fair to stilI ask them to isolate another year when vaccinations could prevent this need? I can just imagine your outrage, outrage I say, when some schools have to go back to virtual, offices cannot reopen, the economy gets sidetracked, and my medical peers and hospitals get slammed yet again because these folks need to be coddled. No more carrots. It is past time for sticks. Businesses, universities, healthcare, schools, etc should have full throated free market abilities to mandate vaccines if they choose to do so. Military and other federal employees need mandates. People need to get over their precious feelings if they want to participate in a normal, healthy society. I listened to Frank Luntz in an interview with Andy Slavitt recently saying the same thing you say. Are these people incapable or unable of being reasonable, informed citizens as the rest of us are expected to be? You insult their intelligence by giving them cover. At least Frank sits his people down, tells them he loves them so much that he doesn't want anything to happen to them, then gives them a 72 hour window to get the first vaccination before he drop kicks them. I'm with President Macron; I am tired of sacrificing for uncooperative people. It is now their turn to stay home if they willingly remain uncooperative. The rest of us deserve a life as afforded by these vaccines.
Also isn't it about time you start blaming the politicians on the right like Trump and Cruz and DeSantos who chose politics and personal ambition over doing what's right? I mean they are the ones who convinced a bunch of moronic right wingers that the CDC and masks and COVID is all political.
Yes they are. And stop scapegoating Fauci its pathetic. The dude was trying to protect americans from a virus that they were constantly learning about. And the thanks he gets is to be threatened, abused, and villianized. All because your real religion prevents you from blaming who is actually responsible. The people you vote for.
"They’d provide food and 'walking around money' to get voters to polls, purposely bring them to precincts where long lines form so they can get a judge to order polls to stay open longer, and leverage provisional ballots for people with no identification whatsoever."
As an election judge, this would piss me off to no end. First of all, there's a lot that you need to get done after the voting is finished, so getting that last voter through the process just kicks off another bunch of stressful work to be done, and the sooner it's done, the happier everyone is. And issuing provisional ballots is a major PITA. In my precinct, our provisional ballots are now done on the single touch-screen machine we have, so clogging up the lines with purposefully-provisional voters whose votes are meant to be thrown out is stupid and wastes everyone's time. To the extent this activity can be detected and the perpetrators be put in legal hot water, the better, as far as I'm concerned.
"Yes, yes, yes. But even worse than that is when the official organ of the state, the CDC, goes back to recommending masks for vaccinated people indoors. Are they daft? Are they mad?"
I live in Blue Chicago, and in the last week, it's become clear that lots of folks here are DONE with masks. The only place where I run into masking requirements these days is public transit and about half the riders are flouting the CTA mask mandate both outside (which doesn't bother me) and on the trains and buses themselves (which does). The CTA isn't enforcing their mandate, so it's entirely honor-system at this point, and based on the number of riders who couldn't give two sh!ts about their fellow riders, trying to re-establish mask mandates beyond the places where they're already being ignored is dead on arrival.
"The vaccination scolds are more concerned with being right than being compassionate, or empathetic to people who’ve been kicked around over their politics and their skepticism for four years. Clearly, the scold approach isn’t working and won’t work. Sympathy should be the response but we get blame instead."
The problem with this is that it's unclear how society can be more sympathetic and expect folks to do the right thing. We've extended the carrots for months now, and we are where we are now with a significant number of resisters who won't do the right thing - no matter how nice you are or how much you try to make them feel good about the shot. The only thing that will convince enough people to get the shot at this point will be the pain and suffering inflicted on their families and local communities, by which time, it'll be too late. Apparently modern germ science is too theoretical for a significant number of Americans to understand.
For what it's worth for those of you trying to get friends and family vaccinated, the ONLY thing that I've been able to get to work isn't being nice, reasonable arguments, etc., but telling them that they don't have to believe you or take your arguments seriously, but to TALK TO THEIR DOCTOR about the shot.
Now, this assumes that they have a decent relationship with their doctor. Encourage them to have that conversation - it's amazing how many folks have simply ignored or skipped that step - and let health professionals take it from there.
I agree. But I have learned to specify "medical doctor". Nothing against chiropractors, acupuncturists, massage therapists, their Reiki dude, essential oil expert, etc but they are not our friends at this moment. Many trust these folks more than their MD, if only because they see them more often.
(Also, I LOL'ed at "their Reiki dude". Thanks for the chuckle.)
Indeed. Chiropractors haven't been doing themselves any favors during this pandemic.[1]
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/14/health/anti-covid-vaxxers.html
I've got to admit Steve, this one threw me. I won't comment on Fulton County, you know Georgia better than I. I have no idea if what you are claiming is true or not, but the goal should be a system that works well...for both parties. Making voting as simple and as efficient is an outcome most states have managed to solve. Stupid "fixes" from either party are well, stupid.
I am more perplexed by this paragraph you wrote: "I understand that masks are the next best thing to vaccination in stopping the spread when herd immunity can’t be achieved. I understand that unvaccinated people will get very sick from the Delta variant, and that Delta seems to spread more easily than the original virus. All true. But we’re talking messaging and politics here, not right and wrong."
Sorry brother, but political messaging is well down my list of what this past year has been all about. In the case of diseases that killed over 600,000 American's my one concern is outcomes. And to be clear, that comes from "right and wrong."
Haranguing about messaging is just more fodder for the foolish. Nope, not calling anyone foolish, simply talking about nonsensical arguments that keep people from doing the right thing. Our only way out of this is herd immunity. We either get there with vaccinations or doubling or tripling the numbers already dead. What is the right choice?
And so we are clear, i did a search to see where masks have been mandated; not much there. I know, you couched this in "recommending masks for vaccinated people indoors"and provided the link. so let's be clear, it is a recommendation and in fact for counties that are facing % increases exceeding certain thresholds. Let me cap it; RECOMMENDATIONS.
You don't want to put one on don't. People refuse to get vaccinated, they won't. It's their choice, but if this once again runs rampant, then what? Are we still going to whine about "political messaging" or are we going to focus on "doing the right thing?"
Hopefully the experts are wrong, the increases they are seeing won't spike. Hopefully it will all "magically go away," (how's that for a political message BTW?). What we do know is we are in the "good times" of summer where folks are outside. When they bring it indoors, what do you expect"
I ask that in all seriousness. I read you in spite of what you write because most often; while i disagree, you are logical and consistent (fairly) in your comments and your positions. This is one of those times where your logic, given what is happening with the Delta variant, just plain misses the mark.
We have three choices: 1) FORCE people to be vaccinated under threat of criminal prosecution; 2) SEGREGATE unvaccinated through economic or social ostracizing...i.e. they lose their jobs and can't go anywhere; 3) CONVINCE people through proper MESSAGING. It seems many people in America believe #3 isn't worth their time or effort, and therefore would default to the first 2.
We've been trying 3 all year. Lotteries, ads, begging, facts. None of these things have worked. How long do you suggest we do this while this virus runs a muck? Do we have to wait until a new variant starts killing the vaccinated as well? Obviously you don't care about the vulnerable, so who do you care about?
Thanks for answering. Not sure why you feel there are only three solutions but let's start there. Don't see 1) as doable or reasonable. 2). I guess if you cap SEGREGATE it somehow negates private employers right to include vaccination (and in federal cases testing in lieu of getting it), as unreasonable. I happen to think it's an alternative that will in fact work. 3) Messaging is a fair option but how about if we start with the idiots on the right telling people not to get vaccinated? How about those media clowns on the right telling people not to get vaccinated? One thing for sure, that's not mixed messaging, that's just plain outright stupidity. I know, i'm being callused but it is what it is. I was going to pull up video clips but why bother? You've seen them i suspect.
Can Fauci et al do a better job. Sure, everyone can, starting with getting the FDA to remove the temporary approval for the vaccines. But let's get real; If there's 56% who have been fully vaccinated and another 44% who haven't, what % of those who haven't are simply doing it for political purposes? Because if it is significant, messaging by those on the left or by bureaucrats are meaningless. The only way they change are by those on the right being abundantly blunt and on point.
Interesting that you responded just as your favorite, Chis Cuomo, was on. Not a big fan, don't watch much but his point while debating messaging was simple: the abundantly clear message of late is "vaccines work" as do masks. Everything else is just an excuse not to do either.
Here is something to cheer about; there was a huge increase in those getting the vaccine today. Irrespective of which party you belong to, that's great news.
Fox News had Trump on 3 times telling people to get vaccinated. Fox & Friends hosts have all encouraged everyone to get vaccinated. A bigger influence is local churches and pastors who have come out vigorously against it. What can be done there? Not sure.
That problem will work itself out as more and more people realize that religion is a joke run by frauds and conmen. The vaccine example is just another in a long line.
I'm so sick of having the right tell me that I should be respectful for the idiots who are risking my life because of their stupidity. Or how we are the ones keeping them from taking the vaccine. It's such bull. You can not fix stupid. And there is a lot of stupid in this country.
My doctors told me not to even be near unvaccinated people. They told me to mask everywhere and to avoid large gatherings if I couldn't ensure everyone is vaccinated. So don't bring medical professionals into your stupid tirades about masks. Or complain when the CDC sees the new troubling data about Delta and reacts accordingly.
You wanna get people vaccinated then your going to have to make it hurt for them not too. Ban them from flights, stores, anywhere that isn't their houses. Force insurance companies to jack up their rates.
We are in this mess because of these idiots. It will get worse unless we actually make efforts that will work and "being nice" to them won't.
Then let them die?
Better them than me. Hell you care more about their feelings than you do about people like me who are immuno-compromised. People like you are just as bad as any anti-vaxxer. So yeah, let them die.
200 ballots were scanned twice: does that really show intent to commit fraud, or just an accident that requires some checks on the process?
It shows nothing. The desire to commit fraud is not evidenced by that at all. Yet it exists.
Seems like you need to reread your post on decency, and not throw accusations of desires to commit fraud without evidence of said desires/actions.
I know from conversations with people who have seen it. I’ve also seen it in other precincts. It’s not a secret.
Seen what, exactly? A "souls to the polls"-type bus? A bottle of water handed to someone? Boxes of ballots brought in a Toyota Corolla through a back door?
They'll do whatever they can get away with. And I'm not talking exclusively about Democrats. Republicans cheat too.
Notice he didn't answer you. Just "people are telling him." Just like the hero he voted for.
Told ya it wouldn't last 10 minutes.
This entire piece is itself stupid in the morning, stupid in the evening, and at dawn, dusk, midnight and noon. Additionally, exactly how long are we supposed to emotionally coddle the "facts over feelings" crowd?? Another 85k to 100k deaths later? Will it be ok then to do some Real Talk with them? Vaccinated America is getting pissed with emotionally wounded toddlers' temper tantrums because they were called names for awhile. Grow up and do the right thing! It it abhorrent that we actually need masks in some areas because people are "sensitive".
Well don't worry your little heart then, because the people who will be dying are the ones who you're not going to coddle. Feel better?
Not one bit better, you? What about the immunocompromised that cannot be vaccinated? The children? The people with medical conditions? Is it fair to stilI ask them to isolate another year when vaccinations could prevent this need? I can just imagine your outrage, outrage I say, when some schools have to go back to virtual, offices cannot reopen, the economy gets sidetracked, and my medical peers and hospitals get slammed yet again because these folks need to be coddled. No more carrots. It is past time for sticks. Businesses, universities, healthcare, schools, etc should have full throated free market abilities to mandate vaccines if they choose to do so. Military and other federal employees need mandates. People need to get over their precious feelings if they want to participate in a normal, healthy society. I listened to Frank Luntz in an interview with Andy Slavitt recently saying the same thing you say. Are these people incapable or unable of being reasonable, informed citizens as the rest of us are expected to be? You insult their intelligence by giving them cover. At least Frank sits his people down, tells them he loves them so much that he doesn't want anything to happen to them, then gives them a 72 hour window to get the first vaccination before he drop kicks them. I'm with President Macron; I am tired of sacrificing for uncooperative people. It is now their turn to stay home if they willingly remain uncooperative. The rest of us deserve a life as afforded by these vaccines.
Also isn't it about time you start blaming the politicians on the right like Trump and Cruz and DeSantos who chose politics and personal ambition over doing what's right? I mean they are the ones who convinced a bunch of moronic right wingers that the CDC and masks and COVID is all political.
Are they? Or did the folks who made Tony Fauci a saint have nothing to do with it?
Yes they are. And stop scapegoating Fauci its pathetic. The dude was trying to protect americans from a virus that they were constantly learning about. And the thanks he gets is to be threatened, abused, and villianized. All because your real religion prevents you from blaming who is actually responsible. The people you vote for.