Crikey - if there's ever been a "culture" in the history of the world that has surpassed and exceeded its own original contributing cultures, it's American: Hollywood, Harvard, McDonalds, the Apollo program, the Human Genome Project, the Internet, Broadway, Duck Dynasty, Tex-Mex, blue jeans, rock and roll, Marvel superheroes, the Super Bowl, professional "wrestling", Stephen King, etc.
I'm not sure why anyone is taking a South African who committed visa fraud seriously as he tries hard to make the USA resemble apartheid SA.
You never fail to amaze me how intelligent and rational you are Steve. Logic is always more compelling than simply bellowing about (fill in the blanks).
That said, my take on Musk's comments is he is full of shit (all too often) and is held in high esteem by some because he is rich beyond compare. As SGman noted, had he stayed in South Africa, would he have been able to accumulate the kind of wealth he enjoys?
All of which feeds exactly into your point Steve: That's why people come to America; for a better way of life. Too bad the rich man cannot grasp that ever so simple concept.
I also think both the Scots and the Irish would oppose being considered in any way similar to the Angles.
There's something off about a South African immigrant (who's part Canadian) talking about who should be allowed to vote or live in the US.
The argument about "heritage Americans" pretty much boils down to "my ancestors came here earlier/fought for the country, therefore deference is owed to me". Well guess what Mr./Mrs. Descendant - you aren't special because of someone else's actions from generations prior. Your ancestor may be worth praising, but you? Heck no!
I haven’t heard Rubio’s speech over the weekend that a lot of conservatives are raving about, but the clips that I’ve heard sound a lot like this cultural populism.
I think Musk is probably racist. However, I generally disagree with you here, in that I don’t think he is making a racist argument (on this occasion).
I consider it more akin to pointing out that “when in Rome, do as the Romans do”. If you’re going to move somewhere in search of a better life, and chose your destination because it supposedly offers it, then your objective upon arrival should be to integrate into it. What is the point of dragging over bits of what you left (presumably because it was found wanting). Now, that doesn’t require assimilation and a loss of self. You can keep your traditions (as I’ve done) yet still ascribe and subscribe to the overriding tenets of your adopted land.
So in this context, I don’t see Musk’s “common culture” as a call to “WASP”-iness, but more to foundational classic liberal principles; one can have multiculturalism whilst insisting that some core principles are (or should be) unassailable as the contract for coming here.
I also don’t think Musk is referring to the “origins” of American culture as literal minimum criteria for those who would want to partake in it; I see it as literal historical fact, warts and all, as you’ve clearly laid out. Those origins are undisputed, but I don’t think Musk seeks to limit access to that culture only to those bloodline descendants.
"So in this context, I don’t see Musk’s 'common culture' as a call to 'WASP'-iness, but more to foundational classic liberal principles; one can have multiculturalism whilst insisting that some core principles are (or should be) unassailable as the contract for coming here."
The problem is that the folks who are fighting against the common core principles are folks like Musk, who are butt-hurt that their version of America isn't what Americans want. For goodness's sake, these are the guys who spent the last year tearing down the post-war order that generations of Americans built. Musk and his fellow travelers have done more damage to classical liberal principles than any in this country that have come before him.
Musk bends to us, not the other way around. If he doesn't like that, then he can go rule Mars with whoever wants to live under his thumb, or pout back in South Africa.
I'm confident that you can find others making those same point without the baggage. Patrick Deneen, perhaps (but not on classic liberalism, of course).
Paying any attention to Musk while he waxes poetic about what America is and classical liberalism, is like taking marriage advice from Trump. Let us hear it from someone who actually believes it (and practices it).
If it's a good point, then the person espousing it shouldn't have any problems being an example for why it's a good point.
If I preach a good point, then do the opposite, then it may not have been such a good point to begin with, and you're giving me more credibility than I'm giving myself.
We can talk about priests who reach around all day, merely as one example if you want to explore the concept of people not walking the walk.
Has Musk been inconsistent in his view of the value of “American culture”? How is he supposed to “espouse” his preference for American culture, or to live it by example?
I’m referring to the concept of the motive of emigration as a whole, as well as “American culture” as a whole, which does not preclude specific exceptions.
I’m also making the specific point that one literally requires no part of “WASP” to ascribe and subscribe to the principles of the “American project”. And I don’t think Musk was suggesting that one does (as I said, he’s probably racist but I don’t think he was making a racist point here).
Saw this from James Surowiecki and thought it apropos for this post:
"The central American idea - the thing that has made us truly distinctive as a culture - is that you are not bound by your past or your family or your heritage. You can make yourself into who you want to be (which often, in America, involves making a lot of money).
All the great things in American culture - the sense of democratic openness, the relative indifference to station, the affection for effort and invention, the distrust of too much authority - proceed from this idea. And its roots go back to "heritage Americans" - Thoreau, Emerson, Whitman. (Melville shows the dark side of it in "The Confidence Man.") But their genius was to understand that America's promise was not confined to them, and that it was open to anyone who chose to come here and embrace it."
If a significant percentage of our population adopts a political ideology increasingly in conflict with traditional ideals, patriotism will take a hit. You guys can argue over which factions are to blame but there is no doubt this is happening. We elected an overt draft dodger as president and lionized a jerk who was a boxing champ. Maybe all history is skewed but it now takes only a few years to change language and thinking with a never-ending flow of biased information.
I do not think the Musk remarks are incorrect nor do I think they have anything to do with ethnicity. The remarks refer to political ideology and individualism vs. collectivism.
Rubio said, “We in America have NO INTEREST in being polite and orderly caretakers of the west’s MANAGED DECLINE!”. Why is that so controversial? Why allow friends to do self-harm without attempting to intervene?
Bill Clinton admitted attempting to avoid registering for the draft. He promised to join the ROTC program at Arkansas and received a deferment. Instead, he went to England for studies while somehow keeping his deferment.
If you think bone spurs are not disqualifying, you should try basic training, but you are probably too old to enlist.
You are probably too young to remember what an a-hole Cassius Clay was during the Vietnam era, and you will be hard pressed to find any of it on the internet because any negatives have been scrubbed or relegated to page 1001. Although he was convicted of avoiding the draft, he served no prison time simply because he was a civil rights icon.
Clinton being a Rhodes Scholar and attending Oxford sounds like a valid deferment to me. His ROTC deferment was temporary, and after he relinquished it upon deciding to not join the ROTC he ended up with a high draft number that resulted in his never being drafted.
Bone spurs don't typically just get better, and said diagnosis came only when he could no longer get a college deferment.
Maybe the USA runs counter to "traditional ideals" over the entire span of human history, but the USA established its own set of values that lasted for over a hundred years but is now being destroyed by internal strife.
This is where it's important to say "American ideals". And also importantly is to fight against those on both sides of the aisle that push illiberal policies.
That means dropping the "Any Republican is better than a Democrat" derangement.
Crikey - if there's ever been a "culture" in the history of the world that has surpassed and exceeded its own original contributing cultures, it's American: Hollywood, Harvard, McDonalds, the Apollo program, the Human Genome Project, the Internet, Broadway, Duck Dynasty, Tex-Mex, blue jeans, rock and roll, Marvel superheroes, the Super Bowl, professional "wrestling", Stephen King, etc.
I'm not sure why anyone is taking a South African who committed visa fraud seriously as he tries hard to make the USA resemble apartheid SA.
You never fail to amaze me how intelligent and rational you are Steve. Logic is always more compelling than simply bellowing about (fill in the blanks).
That said, my take on Musk's comments is he is full of shit (all too often) and is held in high esteem by some because he is rich beyond compare. As SGman noted, had he stayed in South Africa, would he have been able to accumulate the kind of wealth he enjoys?
All of which feeds exactly into your point Steve: That's why people come to America; for a better way of life. Too bad the rich man cannot grasp that ever so simple concept.
I also think both the Scots and the Irish would oppose being considered in any way similar to the Angles.
There's something off about a South African immigrant (who's part Canadian) talking about who should be allowed to vote or live in the US.
The argument about "heritage Americans" pretty much boils down to "my ancestors came here earlier/fought for the country, therefore deference is owed to me". Well guess what Mr./Mrs. Descendant - you aren't special because of someone else's actions from generations prior. Your ancestor may be worth praising, but you? Heck no!
I haven’t heard Rubio’s speech over the weekend that a lot of conservatives are raving about, but the clips that I’ve heard sound a lot like this cultural populism.
Basically he said we don’t fight for ideals, we fight for our country. It’s garbage because our country is based on ideals.
I think Musk is probably racist. However, I generally disagree with you here, in that I don’t think he is making a racist argument (on this occasion).
I consider it more akin to pointing out that “when in Rome, do as the Romans do”. If you’re going to move somewhere in search of a better life, and chose your destination because it supposedly offers it, then your objective upon arrival should be to integrate into it. What is the point of dragging over bits of what you left (presumably because it was found wanting). Now, that doesn’t require assimilation and a loss of self. You can keep your traditions (as I’ve done) yet still ascribe and subscribe to the overriding tenets of your adopted land.
So in this context, I don’t see Musk’s “common culture” as a call to “WASP”-iness, but more to foundational classic liberal principles; one can have multiculturalism whilst insisting that some core principles are (or should be) unassailable as the contract for coming here.
I also don’t think Musk is referring to the “origins” of American culture as literal minimum criteria for those who would want to partake in it; I see it as literal historical fact, warts and all, as you’ve clearly laid out. Those origins are undisputed, but I don’t think Musk seeks to limit access to that culture only to those bloodline descendants.
"So in this context, I don’t see Musk’s 'common culture' as a call to 'WASP'-iness, but more to foundational classic liberal principles; one can have multiculturalism whilst insisting that some core principles are (or should be) unassailable as the contract for coming here."
The problem is that the folks who are fighting against the common core principles are folks like Musk, who are butt-hurt that their version of America isn't what Americans want. For goodness's sake, these are the guys who spent the last year tearing down the post-war order that generations of Americans built. Musk and his fellow travelers have done more damage to classical liberal principles than any in this country that have come before him.
Musk bends to us, not the other way around. If he doesn't like that, then he can go rule Mars with whoever wants to live under his thumb, or pout back in South Africa.
I believe you’re referring to what Musk seems to be, based on the public record. I’m not disputing that.
I’m trying to refer only to what I perceive to be his point here, in isolation, and with no baggage from his priors.
I'm confident that you can find others making those same point without the baggage. Patrick Deneen, perhaps (but not on classic liberalism, of course).
Paying any attention to Musk while he waxes poetic about what America is and classical liberalism, is like taking marriage advice from Trump. Let us hear it from someone who actually believes it (and practices it).
If we focus not on the point, but on the person making it, then it’s ad hominems all day every day.
I think when the guy’s got a point (which I believe to be the case here), you acknowledge that. Doesn’t need to affect one’s view of him overall.
If it's a good point, then the person espousing it shouldn't have any problems being an example for why it's a good point.
If I preach a good point, then do the opposite, then it may not have been such a good point to begin with, and you're giving me more credibility than I'm giving myself.
We can talk about priests who reach around all day, merely as one example if you want to explore the concept of people not walking the walk.
Has Musk been inconsistent in his view of the value of “American culture”? How is he supposed to “espouse” his preference for American culture, or to live it by example?
Are you saying Italian immigrants found WASPy country club life more attractive so they moved to New York City?
I’m referring to the concept of the motive of emigration as a whole, as well as “American culture” as a whole, which does not preclude specific exceptions.
I’m also making the specific point that one literally requires no part of “WASP” to ascribe and subscribe to the principles of the “American project”. And I don’t think Musk was suggesting that one does (as I said, he’s probably racist but I don’t think he was making a racist point here).
Saw this from James Surowiecki and thought it apropos for this post:
"The central American idea - the thing that has made us truly distinctive as a culture - is that you are not bound by your past or your family or your heritage. You can make yourself into who you want to be (which often, in America, involves making a lot of money).
All the great things in American culture - the sense of democratic openness, the relative indifference to station, the affection for effort and invention, the distrust of too much authority - proceed from this idea. And its roots go back to "heritage Americans" - Thoreau, Emerson, Whitman. (Melville shows the dark side of it in "The Confidence Man.") But their genius was to understand that America's promise was not confined to them, and that it was open to anyone who chose to come here and embrace it."
If a significant percentage of our population adopts a political ideology increasingly in conflict with traditional ideals, patriotism will take a hit. You guys can argue over which factions are to blame but there is no doubt this is happening. We elected an overt draft dodger as president and lionized a jerk who was a boxing champ. Maybe all history is skewed but it now takes only a few years to change language and thinking with a never-ending flow of biased information.
I do not think the Musk remarks are incorrect nor do I think they have anything to do with ethnicity. The remarks refer to political ideology and individualism vs. collectivism.
Rubio said, “We in America have NO INTEREST in being polite and orderly caretakers of the west’s MANAGED DECLINE!”. Why is that so controversial? Why allow friends to do self-harm without attempting to intervene?
"We elected an overt draft dodger as president and lionized a jerk who was a boxing champ."
It might be my bone spurs flaring up and my ear aching, but who is this "we", Kemo Sabe?
https://www.starcitytv.com/news/national/mike-tyson-healthy-eating-advocate-for-trump-administration/article_2f0bf0ab-189e-53b0-9b79-50ecaa0f9b18.html
Bill Clinton admitted attempting to avoid registering for the draft. He promised to join the ROTC program at Arkansas and received a deferment. Instead, he went to England for studies while somehow keeping his deferment.
If you think bone spurs are not disqualifying, you should try basic training, but you are probably too old to enlist.
You are probably too young to remember what an a-hole Cassius Clay was during the Vietnam era, and you will be hard pressed to find any of it on the internet because any negatives have been scrubbed or relegated to page 1001. Although he was convicted of avoiding the draft, he served no prison time simply because he was a civil rights icon.
That's my take on it, Little Beaver.
I'm just pointing out that history has a funny way of rhyming if you take the big picture view. :-)
Damn youngsters. Have to be educated at everything. The proper response is "You betchum Red Ryder.
I blame my '80s upbringing and beg forgiveness.
Clinton being a Rhodes Scholar and attending Oxford sounds like a valid deferment to me. His ROTC deferment was temporary, and after he relinquished it upon deciding to not join the ROTC he ended up with a high draft number that resulted in his never being drafted.
Bone spurs don't typically just get better, and said diagnosis came only when he could no longer get a college deferment.
So who are we calling a draft dodger and why?
You should see what he's reposting on Twitter: it's a bunch of outright race-based BS.
You do realize that the entire basis of the USA runs counter to "traditional ideals", right?
I do not Twitter.
Maybe the USA runs counter to "traditional ideals" over the entire span of human history, but the USA established its own set of values that lasted for over a hundred years but is now being destroyed by internal strife.
This is where it's important to say "American ideals". And also importantly is to fight against those on both sides of the aisle that push illiberal policies.
That means dropping the "Any Republican is better than a Democrat" derangement.