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Bill Pearson's avatar

Yesterday Jay posted Lincoln's Gettysburg address, today we are treated to trumps insane and profane comments on truth social (really, truth?). The differences explains, expands and explodes literally everything you have written Steve.

How the hell did we get here?

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Jay Berman's avatar

It’s been a long and winding road.

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Curtis Stinespring's avatar

I fail to find a factual connection between your last paragraph and Trump's post. Just more assumptions.

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Steve Berman's avatar

Sometimes you “find a trout in the milk”, as Henry David Thoreau wrote. Circumstantial evidence can be overwhelming. As in 20 books, half written by former Trump administration top officials who all saw the trout.

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Curtis Stinespring's avatar

Your last paragraph implies that Trump's post is sufficient evidence of his desire to destroy American freedoms negating the sacrifices made by valiant veterans who gave their all. That, to me, seems like an extreme view.

For sure, circumstantial evidence can reinforce existing bias - except in the case of Joe Biden. I do not have any scholarly quotes or parables to respond to you and Thoreau. Instead, I will paraphrase Bill Barr, a member of the Trump administration who is very critical of his former boss. Electing Trump is Russian roulette. Electing Biden is suicide.

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Steve Berman's avatar

My bias has been built up over a long period of time seeing the circumstantial, and factual, evidence, which is in abundance. I do not say Trump has a "desire to destroy American freedoms"--his ENDS--but his methods, his MEANS, accomplish exactly that. The ends can never justify the means, and Trump has made it clear he draws no lines regarding what he's willing to do to achieve his ends. Even if those ends seem to be good.

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Curtis Stinespring's avatar

Are you sure the ends can never justify the means? If Trump is as evil as you think he is, how far do you think some like-minded people would go to destroy the man? Would that include lies, distortions, lawfare or even violence? I trust you would not, but right-wing nuts aren't the only crazies out there.

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Steve Berman's avatar

That’s Trump’s superpower. To get those who hate him for putting then ends above the means to put the ends above the means to stop him.

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glancep's avatar

As someone who (admittedly) hates Trump, I do struggle with this. I agree with most you wrote here—including about ends and means. But it’s difficult to hold true to the principal with someone like Trump, who somehow manages to perpetually evade justice. It’s pitting my ends/means desire against my need for justice and decency to prevail—at least once with Trump! Both are important values for me, and they can sometimes be diametrically opposed. Trump seems adept at manufacturing these impossible quandaries.

This is why I hold the American “right” to a large extent responsible for inflicting Trump on us all. Just makes me sad…

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Curtis Stinespring's avatar

Is that a paradox?

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Linda wallack's avatar

obummer was horrible....I call him a mamzar king now. the socialist jerk. as well, if not for obummercare, the building blocks for the ronacon would not have been there. people love pharma and "free" healthcare. Rev 18:23

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