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David Thornton's avatar

I’m reminded of the lines of the classic meme:

I believe Donald Trump was sent by God?

Did he run out of locusts?

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Steve Berman's avatar

That’s funny right there. I don’t care who you are.

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Cameron Sprow's avatar

Amen and amen! You finally get what I have been trying to say all along, that there are plenty of reasons to not vote for Trump, so we don't have to resort to lies about Jan.6th to get the point across. I will, however, take issue with one thing in your piece, and that is where you say that if judgment is coming, it won't be because of Joe Biden. Rest assured, God will not ignore those who are totally depraved, and always have been. I give you Sodom and Gomorrah. Having said that, as you rightly point out, "judgment begins at the house of God."

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David Thornton's avatar

Somewhat agree.

There are plenty of reasons to vote against Trump, and January 6 is a big one.

God will judge the depraved. That includes religious hypocrites. We shouldn’t celebrate or rejoice at this fact, but weep for the lost and tremble at our own failings, thanking God for his mercy. We deserve the same fate as the depraved because we are all depraved sinners.

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Cameron Sprow's avatar

Agreed, except for Jan.6th.

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Susan Bagwell's avatar

What 'lies' about January 6?

There's no reason to lie at all, given that we all saw what happened on January 6 with our own eyes. It was televised. Some of those miscreants live streamed it. They were happy to commit those acts of sedition and treason.

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Cameron Sprow's avatar

The lies David Thornton tells concerning Donald Trump's involvement.

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Susan Bagwell's avatar

Again I ask... WHAT lies?

Be specific. What is it that you say he's lying about? Let's break it down.

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Cameron Sprow's avatar

Ok, try to follow along, David Thornton keeps saying that Donald Trump is responsible for jan.6th, that he egged on, goaded, and otherwise influenced the crowd to riot, or as he has put it, caused an insurrection. This is not true, therefore it is a lie, and I will never be a party to anyone who says otherwise.

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Susan Bagwell's avatar

He was correct. This is exactly what happened.

It's your desire to believe that everything bad that happens around Trump, by those who worship Trump has no connection to Trump, but you'd be wrong.

Trump instigated the actions of January 6. He could have stopped it all with a single tweet, long before it escalated to the point of anyone being seriously hurt or killed. He could have stopped the calls for Mike Pence to be hanged, but he did not. He let it go on for HOURS before saying a single thing. That was by design. That was because he wanted the certification of the election stopped. To say otherwise is willful ignorance of historical FACT.

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Cameron Sprow's avatar

How do you know he co I ld have stopped it all with a tweet? How do you know he could have stopped the calls for Mike Pence to be hanged? How do you know the FBI didn't "instigate"the crowd to do what they did? They had operatives in the crowd that day that could have been working for Pelosi or Biden. Did Trump tell the crowd to erect a gallows? No Did Trump tell the crowd to rush the barricades and scuffle with the police? No in FACT, Trump in his speech that day told the crowd to go to the Capitol PEACEFULLY AND PATRIOTICALLY. Those are the facts, Ms. Bagwell. Sometimes, people have to be held responsible for their own actions, without blaming someone else.

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Susan Bagwell's avatar

Excellent.

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Dan's avatar

It is God who raise and take away the kings of this world. See Daniel 2:20-22. There are other verses like this. It is his sovereign will to appoint whosoever is needed to lead a nation, be it good or bad. It doesn't mean he's going to override our will when we go to the voting booth this November, however, he will have tools at his disposal to nudge us toward one direction or another.

If God sees fit to allow Trump be reelected to one more term, then so be it. Likewise, if God wants Biden to remain in White House, so be it.

One thing I am absolutely sure about is America will decline spiritually regardless of who is in White House. Since there's nothing about America in the Bible, I have to believe that something profoundly bad will happen to America.

Other than that, it's best to vote with our conscience intact and be sure it's done according to God's will.

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SGman's avatar

Note: Biden lost presidential primaries. He has never lost a general election for Senator, VP, or POTUS - yet.

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Steve Cheung's avatar

I wonder where this MacArthur dude comes down on the “morality” of the Orange thing. His “god” would want that? Lol.

There is also always the option of not leading your life based on a book written by a bunch of old farts a couple of millennia ago. I find that far preferable to the alternative.

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Steve Berman's avatar

Wouldn't you rather be loved?

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Steve Cheung's avatar

I am. By real actual people who I love.

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Steve Berman's avatar

Then you're blessed.

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Steve Cheung's avatar

As Hitchens loved to say, it requires a certain solipsism to believe that, if there was such a thing as “god”, and he/she/it was an all-everything as the tale goes, that he/she/it would give a flying flip about 1 out of 8-Ish billion current examples of 1 species (never mind all the examples who once existed, and the countless more who one day will come into existence) on a tiny speck of dust in a little corner of the universe.

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Chris J. Karr's avatar

Assumes a deity with finite knowledge and attention. If you go with the proposition that a god is omniscient, then it follows that it's pretty hard for that entity to ignore anyone (or anything).

(I'm not a Christian or religious believer of any kind, but I was pondering this EXACT point earlier this week.)

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Vicki C.'s avatar

Back in my younger days when I was actively involved with my old church, I used to wrestle with what seemed to me to be a really big contradiction. If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and a loving, caring God, how does he look away from things like the holocaust or the 2004 tsunami that killed over 230,000 people in just a matter of hours (the list is endless)? It seems to be that if he is all knowing and omnipotent yet these things still happen, how can we then say he is also an all loving, all caring God? Is he maybe all loving, but not omnipotent or vice versa and not actually both? As a boring old humanist who no longer believes in supernatural intervention, I don't really ponder these types of questions any more, but seeing your comment was a small reminder.

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Steve Cheung's avatar

That’s true. And it’s also a fairly large “if”, prefaced by the even larger “if” as pertains to god’s existence.

Suffice it to say that those suppositions do not auger with my priors.

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Cameron Sprow's avatar

How about this from the Bible, "What is man, that thou art mindful of him?"

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Cameron Sprow's avatar

Those "old farts" were mere stenographers. God Himself dictated to them what to write down.

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SGman's avatar

Gonna have to explain the changes to Leviticus. Assumedly it was written correctly the first time, and yet later on someone changed the text.

I wonder if an older existing copy of the Torah will be found that does not include those later changes, and what the reaction from the Christian world will be.

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Gary Underwood's avatar

This article is spot on and exactly right and true. I wished more believers knew what they followed better.

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Bill Pearson's avatar

You almost lost me there Steve. Whenever you go to your bible shtick, it's way above my pay grade. Kidding, because i am always impressed by both your knowledge and your commitment to your faith. For me, 48 years of sobriety, a higher power and believing in right and wrong get us to a similar space.

I'm always intrigued by these mega-church guys who have built a fortune off of their flock. 10's of millions of dollars, living the life of luxury and promoting trump as their savior is a head scratchier (i'm being really kind with that assessment). I find it sinful, but who am i to judge?

Bottom line: Joe Biden, Catholic who regularly attends church (and leads a moral life) or trump who shows up at churches as promotional stunts to help win votes and sell bibles. I don't need to be a Rhodes scholar to figure this one out. I just need to know the difference between right or wrong.

Amen to your sermon by the way. AMEN.

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SGman's avatar

RE: Mega churches - did you see that one in Canada had to pause/cease operations because they couldn't get sexual abuse insurance?

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