David French wrote this morning that there is no remaining Christian case for Trump. Let me take that thought a bit further: there never was a Christian case for Trump.
"I don’t like the fact that it’s become faddish for same-sex couples to dominate media and entertainment as if it’s to throw mud pies at Christians; and I don’t like the fact that the supporters of gay marriage chose to preserve the religious aspects of marriage (versus offering civil unions) while forcing Christians to support what the Bible teaches is a sinful lifestyle against conscience."
I humbly submit that Christians *go out of their way* to be offended at same-sex marriages under the dubious auspices of "religious freedom".
Let me put it this way - there seemed to be a brief window pre-COVID where threesome relationships were a brief fad in the media, having been rebranded "throuples". I thought it was annoying and juvenile for the most part (and mainly an attention-seeking exercise), but I didn't feel like it was like someone diminishing or throwing mud pies at my own secular marriage and relationship. Exposure to it didn't make me feel like I was supporting it - it was just something else out there in the world. (I also have a good friend in such a relationship - I don't "get" it, but I don't view it as an affront to my existence either.)
One of the points that I make repeatedly in these conversations where Christians are complaining about the tyranny of same-sex marriages is to inquire whether they rail against no-fault divorce and no-fault divorcees to the same extent that they go after gay and lesbian couples. As a child of divorce, I can 100% say that my family structure was damaged by the fact that my parents divorced early (and for a good reason, as I was a VERY early teenage pregnancy, and kids that young don't know their asses from holes in the ground). I have friends with traditional straight parents whose family relationships were irreparably damaged and changed by their straight parents deciding to move on from one another.
Contrast with my life now - I live in a complex with 21 units and two to three (I'm not sure of one, and frankly it's none of my business) of them are occupied by married gay couples. We also have a number of traditional straight couples raising children and the presence of gay couples (one of which is raising an adopted child of their own) isn't making the neighboring marriages worse off - I'd argue the opposite is happening as those gay marriages and long term relationships are showing the kids growing up in our complex that family stability is a thing that people do, something I really didn't get to experience until I started attending school regularly with kids who had parents with healthy marriages.
To bring this back to Christians being offended and somehow oppressed by the existence of same-sex marriages, as a policy, I don't take those accounts seriously unless the complaining Christian is just as vociferous and vocal in highlighting the sins of divorce, premarital sexual relations, promiscuity, and all the other crap that straight people need to clean up in their own houses before complaining that somehow a gay or lesbian couple receiving the same privileges straight folk do under the umbrella of "marriage" is somehow making their relationships less stable. If you don't like what you see in the media, switch the channel, and let the Nielsen Ratings take care of the rest, as seemed to happen to "throuples".
You’re largely correct and I agree. The “culture war” was fought on just a few (money-raising) issues, straining gnats while letting camels pass. It wasn’t until the great sins of sexual abuse that were covered up began to surface that we learned of how much was sacrificed to complain loudly about 2 men kissing on tv. All that is true. However, there’s no reason to force a Christian to “affirm” or participate in a religious marriage the church doesn’t recognize. Society doesn’t force imams to perform marriages involving a Jew and a Muslim, or rabbis to marry a Jew and a Christian. As for divorce, it is a sin, and Christians divorce at the same rate as non-Christians. I think that says a lot about how many Christians have fully assimilated the secular world’s values and use the culture war issues as a crutch. Now the crutch is gone.
How is seeing gay marriage in media being forced to participate or affirm? Just as with any media one doesn't want to see, just turn it off/turn the page/etc....
Who's forcing any religious figure to perform gay marriage?
Apologies if I took a smallish piece of what you wanted to write and wrote a whole rant on it. This is one of my personal triggers, and in my personal experience, those making the argument that the Sexual Revolution is the source of all of society's ills are also most likely the kind of people who have a hard time finding or keeping a long-term relationship, not because gays or trans people are making all relationships worse, but because usually the person arguing that is looking for an excuse for their failure in the relationship market that isn't their fault and can be blamed on someone else.
If you're a Christian and want to make marriage stronger - exercise your Agency and be a good partner in a marriage that is worthy of emulation. To get back to the main point of your post, Christians seem annoyed that people don't hold their culture and religion in high regard, and then argue that they're "forced" to back folks like Trump to make up for the ground they've lost being lousy Christians and poor examples to emulate all on their own. The only Christian sect that seems to understand how to lead by example are the Mormons (whose Congressional delegation BACKED protecting same sex marriages - i.e. The Utah Compromise[1]), and I wish other Christians would put as much time being good examples as they do about complaining about people they go out of their way to be offended by.
I didn’t make the argument “that the Sexual Revolution is the source of all of society's ills.” I don’t believe it’s true. Repressed sin is still sin in the heart. The mission of the Church is to make disciples through love and the power of God. Not to be an engine of offense. That’s the reaction of a group addicted to political power and suddenly realizing they don’t have it. Christians have drifted from God’s purpose which is why evangelism in the US is largely ineffective. I also believe there will be a real revival. Everyone seemed to have missed the “Jesus people” revival in the late 60s and early
70s. Especially church people. Now Christians have conferences and celebrity pastors. Time for some humility.
"I didn’t make the argument 'that the Sexual Revolution is the source of all of society's ills.' I don’t believe it’s true."
I don't think that you do and I should have stated so in my comment above. I was more in "old man shouting at clouds" mode after spending a little too much time reading another post-liberal (or flirting with post-liberalism) commentator justify their Trump vote on the basis of Christian tribal politics, without recognizing why Christians have lost ground in the public sphere in the first place, and continue to lose ground by making excuses for elevating markedly non-Christian figures like Trump, Hawley, and Gaetz to positions of power.
Should have been clearer on that, and I need to be sure to stop mainlining The American Conservative right before stopping in here to see how things are going.
Jul 25, 2022·edited Jul 25, 2022Liked by Chris J. Karr
It's something of a tell: "let them be married, just stay invisible and don't let me see it."
In regards to marriage, we're talking about legal marriage - not religious marriage. It is ostensibly possible to have a non-legal religious marriage, right?
Considering marriage was historically a non-religious thing more based on legal contracts/property/etc..., perhaps it's best to start calling religious unions something else - wouldn't want to sully their unions with all the worldly bits.
It actually sounds a lot like a desire for "separate but equal", which...ain't a great look, in my opinion.
It's not a quote, it's a paraphrasing. Apologies is using quotation marks is inappropriate for that purpose: I'd use italics but that doesn't appear to be an option here.
The view that marriage is inherently religious is ahistorical, and it's important that that fact is recognized and applied to what marriage is and has meant.
The attempt to make marriage solely a religious matter and rebrand non-religious marriage as a civil union is in itself an example of Christians behaving badly, in my opinion.
"In regards to marriage, we're talking about legal marriage - not religious marriage. It is ostensibly possible to have a non-legal religious marriage, right?"
I guess that depends on how creative and permissive your Higher Power is. Plenty of cults and the like practice polygamy still, even if it's not recognized by the State. I think you can also have situations where a marriage is dissolved, and the State recognizes that, where the Church may not.
Catholicism for example[1]:
"The Catholic Church does not permit divorce for valid sacramental marriages. In fact a valid sacramental marriage is impossible to dissolve thereby making divorce not possible if the marriage was sacramental."
"In marriage, the two become one flesh in a union joined by God, (Mark 10:8). Jesus speaks about divorce: 'Therefore what God has joined together, no human being must separate,' (Mark 10:9). So for a marriage that meets the requirements of being a sacrament, divorce in the Catholic Church is not possible."
"The annulment process is by which a marriage is determined whether or not it is valid, it is not a Catholic divorce process. If it found to be invalid (not meeting the requirements of a sacramental marriage) then an annulment would be granted."
"Marriage directly parallels our relationship with God. God is 100% faithful in his relationship with us those who choose to get married are called to the same faithfulness."
"I don’t like the fact that it’s become faddish for same-sex couples to dominate media and entertainment as if it’s to throw mud pies at Christians; and I don’t like the fact that the supporters of gay marriage chose to preserve the religious aspects of marriage (versus offering civil unions) while forcing Christians to support what the Bible teaches is a sinful lifestyle against conscience."
I humbly submit that Christians *go out of their way* to be offended at same-sex marriages under the dubious auspices of "religious freedom".
Let me put it this way - there seemed to be a brief window pre-COVID where threesome relationships were a brief fad in the media, having been rebranded "throuples". I thought it was annoying and juvenile for the most part (and mainly an attention-seeking exercise), but I didn't feel like it was like someone diminishing or throwing mud pies at my own secular marriage and relationship. Exposure to it didn't make me feel like I was supporting it - it was just something else out there in the world. (I also have a good friend in such a relationship - I don't "get" it, but I don't view it as an affront to my existence either.)
One of the points that I make repeatedly in these conversations where Christians are complaining about the tyranny of same-sex marriages is to inquire whether they rail against no-fault divorce and no-fault divorcees to the same extent that they go after gay and lesbian couples. As a child of divorce, I can 100% say that my family structure was damaged by the fact that my parents divorced early (and for a good reason, as I was a VERY early teenage pregnancy, and kids that young don't know their asses from holes in the ground). I have friends with traditional straight parents whose family relationships were irreparably damaged and changed by their straight parents deciding to move on from one another.
Contrast with my life now - I live in a complex with 21 units and two to three (I'm not sure of one, and frankly it's none of my business) of them are occupied by married gay couples. We also have a number of traditional straight couples raising children and the presence of gay couples (one of which is raising an adopted child of their own) isn't making the neighboring marriages worse off - I'd argue the opposite is happening as those gay marriages and long term relationships are showing the kids growing up in our complex that family stability is a thing that people do, something I really didn't get to experience until I started attending school regularly with kids who had parents with healthy marriages.
To bring this back to Christians being offended and somehow oppressed by the existence of same-sex marriages, as a policy, I don't take those accounts seriously unless the complaining Christian is just as vociferous and vocal in highlighting the sins of divorce, premarital sexual relations, promiscuity, and all the other crap that straight people need to clean up in their own houses before complaining that somehow a gay or lesbian couple receiving the same privileges straight folk do under the umbrella of "marriage" is somehow making their relationships less stable. If you don't like what you see in the media, switch the channel, and let the Nielsen Ratings take care of the rest, as seemed to happen to "throuples".
You’re largely correct and I agree. The “culture war” was fought on just a few (money-raising) issues, straining gnats while letting camels pass. It wasn’t until the great sins of sexual abuse that were covered up began to surface that we learned of how much was sacrificed to complain loudly about 2 men kissing on tv. All that is true. However, there’s no reason to force a Christian to “affirm” or participate in a religious marriage the church doesn’t recognize. Society doesn’t force imams to perform marriages involving a Jew and a Muslim, or rabbis to marry a Jew and a Christian. As for divorce, it is a sin, and Christians divorce at the same rate as non-Christians. I think that says a lot about how many Christians have fully assimilated the secular world’s values and use the culture war issues as a crutch. Now the crutch is gone.
How is seeing gay marriage in media being forced to participate or affirm? Just as with any media one doesn't want to see, just turn it off/turn the page/etc....
Who's forcing any religious figure to perform gay marriage?
Apologies if I took a smallish piece of what you wanted to write and wrote a whole rant on it. This is one of my personal triggers, and in my personal experience, those making the argument that the Sexual Revolution is the source of all of society's ills are also most likely the kind of people who have a hard time finding or keeping a long-term relationship, not because gays or trans people are making all relationships worse, but because usually the person arguing that is looking for an excuse for their failure in the relationship market that isn't their fault and can be blamed on someone else.
If you're a Christian and want to make marriage stronger - exercise your Agency and be a good partner in a marriage that is worthy of emulation. To get back to the main point of your post, Christians seem annoyed that people don't hold their culture and religion in high regard, and then argue that they're "forced" to back folks like Trump to make up for the ground they've lost being lousy Christians and poor examples to emulate all on their own. The only Christian sect that seems to understand how to lead by example are the Mormons (whose Congressional delegation BACKED protecting same sex marriages - i.e. The Utah Compromise[1]), and I wish other Christians would put as much time being good examples as they do about complaining about people they go out of their way to be offended by.
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/12/us/politics/utah-passes-antidiscrimination-bill-backed-by-mormon-leaders.html
I didn’t make the argument “that the Sexual Revolution is the source of all of society's ills.” I don’t believe it’s true. Repressed sin is still sin in the heart. The mission of the Church is to make disciples through love and the power of God. Not to be an engine of offense. That’s the reaction of a group addicted to political power and suddenly realizing they don’t have it. Christians have drifted from God’s purpose which is why evangelism in the US is largely ineffective. I also believe there will be a real revival. Everyone seemed to have missed the “Jesus people” revival in the late 60s and early
70s. Especially church people. Now Christians have conferences and celebrity pastors. Time for some humility.
"I didn’t make the argument 'that the Sexual Revolution is the source of all of society's ills.' I don’t believe it’s true."
I don't think that you do and I should have stated so in my comment above. I was more in "old man shouting at clouds" mode after spending a little too much time reading another post-liberal (or flirting with post-liberalism) commentator justify their Trump vote on the basis of Christian tribal politics, without recognizing why Christians have lost ground in the public sphere in the first place, and continue to lose ground by making excuses for elevating markedly non-Christian figures like Trump, Hawley, and Gaetz to positions of power.
Should have been clearer on that, and I need to be sure to stop mainlining The American Conservative right before stopping in here to see how things are going.
It's something of a tell: "let them be married, just stay invisible and don't let me see it."
In regards to marriage, we're talking about legal marriage - not religious marriage. It is ostensibly possible to have a non-legal religious marriage, right?
Considering marriage was historically a non-religious thing more based on legal contracts/property/etc..., perhaps it's best to start calling religious unions something else - wouldn't want to sully their unions with all the worldly bits.
It actually sounds a lot like a desire for "separate but equal", which...ain't a great look, in my opinion.
When you use quotes, make sure you’re quoting the author. You seem to have made up your own words, not mine.
It's not a quote, it's a paraphrasing. Apologies is using quotation marks is inappropriate for that purpose: I'd use italics but that doesn't appear to be an option here.
The view that marriage is inherently religious is ahistorical, and it's important that that fact is recognized and applied to what marriage is and has meant.
The attempt to make marriage solely a religious matter and rebrand non-religious marriage as a civil union is in itself an example of Christians behaving badly, in my opinion.
"In regards to marriage, we're talking about legal marriage - not religious marriage. It is ostensibly possible to have a non-legal religious marriage, right?"
I guess that depends on how creative and permissive your Higher Power is. Plenty of cults and the like practice polygamy still, even if it's not recognized by the State. I think you can also have situations where a marriage is dissolved, and the State recognizes that, where the Church may not.
Catholicism for example[1]:
"The Catholic Church does not permit divorce for valid sacramental marriages. In fact a valid sacramental marriage is impossible to dissolve thereby making divorce not possible if the marriage was sacramental."
"In marriage, the two become one flesh in a union joined by God, (Mark 10:8). Jesus speaks about divorce: 'Therefore what God has joined together, no human being must separate,' (Mark 10:9). So for a marriage that meets the requirements of being a sacrament, divorce in the Catholic Church is not possible."
"The annulment process is by which a marriage is determined whether or not it is valid, it is not a Catholic divorce process. If it found to be invalid (not meeting the requirements of a sacramental marriage) then an annulment would be granted."
"Marriage directly parallels our relationship with God. God is 100% faithful in his relationship with us those who choose to get married are called to the same faithfulness."
[1] https://www.aboutcatholics.com/beliefs/divorce-annulments-and-remarriage/
Yep those darn gays sure got "uppity" didn't they. It's what happens when you have a belief system that teaches hate and ignorance.
Man you make your religion look hateful and pathetic. Thank you.