"There’s no one who can reasonably, in the court of public opinion, and in the court of law, do legal justice upon Trump."
In a court of law, I'm fairly certain that a jury of his fellow citizens hearing criminal charges can mete out the appropriate justice for the things of which Trump is accused.
I can't think of a better example to drive home the point that while we may fail at it at times, we - as a society - hold that our laws apply to EVERYONE. I can't see another American citizen getting away without legal consequences (even if that consequence ends at a trial and acquittal) had any of the rest of us been credibly accused of what Trump has done.
On a related note, do you believe that Trump's enablers and collaborators on January 6th should also be let free with a shrug and extracted promise to not join an insurrection again? Ignoring Trump, if there aren't consequences for the likes of Flynn, Powell, Eastman, and especially Guiliani, what's the message we're sending other than to get smarter people to carry out your coup next time?
This is a great opportunity to add some new Cautionary Tales to our national mythos.
Is an 18 year old kid who accompanied his parents to DC for the “stop the steal” rally and ended up in the Capitol an enabler, or a collaborator? I didn’t see John Eastman or Rudy Giuliani sitting in Nancy Pelosi’s chair or taking selfies with the guy who wore horns for a hat. Yes, there should be legal consequences for the folks who blew smoke up the country’s back end. But the largest group who entered the Capitol were marks and rubes who thought they were acting in faith of their president not as insurrectionists. These are the ones paying for the crimes of those responsible.
If I walked into the Capitol topless wearing my local Water Buffalo Lodge hat and proceeded to climb aboard the House Speakers' dais without permission, I'd expect to be subject to some Consequences. I don't understand why making an exception for the Q-Anon Shaman is somehow the "just" thing to do.
As for the 18 year old kid, I'm going to need more specifics before I can comment more. I would hope that he was just following his Q-soaked parents into the Capitol might be seen as a mitigating factor during his sentencing phase (with higher penalties for the parents who should know better). Please share a link or details if you have a case in mind.
My position is and has been that in order to prevent the next January 6th, Consequences must be imposed all the way from the top with a President pushing his followers to violently confront a co-equal branch of government for simply carrying out its Constitutional duty down to the folks who organized the trips that put the cannon fodder on the ground. We need EVERYONE to think a bit harder about the price they may pay should they choose to stage a repeat. Either we take Personal Responsibility and Agency seriously or settle for people doing bad stuff all the time with a shrug, as no one has any choice in anything.
As for the marks paying for the crimes of the responsible, I think we're mostly on the same page with this. I may be a bit harsher on the Jan. 6th cannon fodder than you would be (I have family members who could have been part of that mob and would have known better), and would gladly trade letting those folks go home with commuted sentences in exchange for putting Trump on trial. However, you're the one arguing that Trump has already had enough "justice" and we shouldn't take it further to a trial should the evidence merit it. I disagree with that vigorously.
I'd also like to point out that we're still in the middle of this story, and the gears of justice are turning a bit slower for the folks up the culpability food chain. Aside from Trump's fate, by the end of this, Dominion Voting may end up owning a pillow company, a news network, and be garnishing the earnings of Sidney Powell for the rest of her natural life. Guiliani may end up rotting away in a Georgia or Arizona prison. So, if you're feeling that the folks higher up the chain haven't gotten their just desserts yet, I'd advise a bit more patience.
If there’s one “special situation” requiring circumstances to determine prosecution then they are all subject to the same consideration. If the kid (whose parents stayed back but lost sight of their son) is deserving of some mercy, then where do we draw the line for justice? You said they are all culpable. If so then so is the kid and others like him. I personally think we need to start from a place of mercy and then build up to prosecution, not the other way around. At least that’s what I’m told to do with groups like Antifa when they frenzy.
(And as a Chicago resident who saw the city I love hollowed out in 2020 and struggling to come back from the riots and looting there, I'd also have appreciated a MUCH harder line taken by the local prosecutors on the looters and Antifa figures whose actions directly made Chicago 2022 a worse place than Chicago 2019.)
And to be clear, if Biden decided to commute the sentences of the Jan. 6th cannon fodder, I'd have zero problem with it and it might raise Biden's profile in my book a bit. However - drawing on your Les Misérables discussion above - mercy is a gift. It's not mercy if you can do something that you shouldn't be doing (see agency above) and expect the merciful to automatically rescue you from your own poor decisions.
I'm pretty sure that while the parties responsible for deluding the mob are most at fault, those that entered the Capitol are responsible for their own actions - and that ignorance of the law is not an excuse.
The people who wandered in aren't the ones who are getting hit unless they stole or damages the building. Even then the penalty is pretty small. For the most part they are getting fined and lectured and released. Some are getting a little home detention time. If you struck a cop, carried a weapon, or held on conspiracy charges (mostly militia), they are getting the hammer. Contrary to popular belief there are a good many weapon charges. There is a group who went to jail because they were on parole already and broke the conditions of their parole so they have had to serve out their prior sentence. There are a few Sovereign Citizens who are refusing to recognize the authority of the court so they are still held.
Primarily it's the militia members charged with seditious conspiracy, weapons, and those who attacked the police who are getting serious sentences.
The most outstanding thing after reading the court docs is that most of these people were either never before voters, never even voted in 2020, or were previously Obama voters. Mr and Mrs Mainstreet GOP were not there or at least not represented among those arrested.
I can perhaps see some mercy in sentencing, but the young man should still be charged and tried. Just because he was deluded by misinformaton does not excuse his attempts to acquire an AR-15; force his way into the Capitol; scuffle/shove police; or take pictures of Congressional documents.
Depends on what that 18-year old adult ('cause you know, legal age of majority and all...) did or didn't do: if they entered the building and did nothing but take a selfie - I'd say be lenient. If they entered and starting breaking/taking/pooping on things, then charge 'em.
Trump hasn't been remorseful about his conduct and clearly would do it all over again - with different people next time - if given the choice. If the goal of all of this is National Healing, you shouldn't be looking at the White House for a pardon at this point in time, you should be casting your gaze to Mar-a-Lago and seeing if anyone's taking responsibility down there.
"There’s no one who can reasonably, in the court of public opinion, and in the court of law, do legal justice upon Trump."
In a court of law, I'm fairly certain that a jury of his fellow citizens hearing criminal charges can mete out the appropriate justice for the things of which Trump is accused.
I can't think of a better example to drive home the point that while we may fail at it at times, we - as a society - hold that our laws apply to EVERYONE. I can't see another American citizen getting away without legal consequences (even if that consequence ends at a trial and acquittal) had any of the rest of us been credibly accused of what Trump has done.
On a related note, do you believe that Trump's enablers and collaborators on January 6th should also be let free with a shrug and extracted promise to not join an insurrection again? Ignoring Trump, if there aren't consequences for the likes of Flynn, Powell, Eastman, and especially Guiliani, what's the message we're sending other than to get smarter people to carry out your coup next time?
This is a great opportunity to add some new Cautionary Tales to our national mythos.
Is an 18 year old kid who accompanied his parents to DC for the “stop the steal” rally and ended up in the Capitol an enabler, or a collaborator? I didn’t see John Eastman or Rudy Giuliani sitting in Nancy Pelosi’s chair or taking selfies with the guy who wore horns for a hat. Yes, there should be legal consequences for the folks who blew smoke up the country’s back end. But the largest group who entered the Capitol were marks and rubes who thought they were acting in faith of their president not as insurrectionists. These are the ones paying for the crimes of those responsible.
If I walked into the Capitol topless wearing my local Water Buffalo Lodge hat and proceeded to climb aboard the House Speakers' dais without permission, I'd expect to be subject to some Consequences. I don't understand why making an exception for the Q-Anon Shaman is somehow the "just" thing to do.
As for the 18 year old kid, I'm going to need more specifics before I can comment more. I would hope that he was just following his Q-soaked parents into the Capitol might be seen as a mitigating factor during his sentencing phase (with higher penalties for the parents who should know better). Please share a link or details if you have a case in mind.
My position is and has been that in order to prevent the next January 6th, Consequences must be imposed all the way from the top with a President pushing his followers to violently confront a co-equal branch of government for simply carrying out its Constitutional duty down to the folks who organized the trips that put the cannon fodder on the ground. We need EVERYONE to think a bit harder about the price they may pay should they choose to stage a repeat. Either we take Personal Responsibility and Agency seriously or settle for people doing bad stuff all the time with a shrug, as no one has any choice in anything.
As for the marks paying for the crimes of the responsible, I think we're mostly on the same page with this. I may be a bit harsher on the Jan. 6th cannon fodder than you would be (I have family members who could have been part of that mob and would have known better), and would gladly trade letting those folks go home with commuted sentences in exchange for putting Trump on trial. However, you're the one arguing that Trump has already had enough "justice" and we shouldn't take it further to a trial should the evidence merit it. I disagree with that vigorously.
I'd also like to point out that we're still in the middle of this story, and the gears of justice are turning a bit slower for the folks up the culpability food chain. Aside from Trump's fate, by the end of this, Dominion Voting may end up owning a pillow company, a news network, and be garnishing the earnings of Sidney Powell for the rest of her natural life. Guiliani may end up rotting away in a Georgia or Arizona prison. So, if you're feeling that the folks higher up the chain haven't gotten their just desserts yet, I'd advise a bit more patience.
If there’s one “special situation” requiring circumstances to determine prosecution then they are all subject to the same consideration. If the kid (whose parents stayed back but lost sight of their son) is deserving of some mercy, then where do we draw the line for justice? You said they are all culpable. If so then so is the kid and others like him. I personally think we need to start from a place of mercy and then build up to prosecution, not the other way around. At least that’s what I’m told to do with groups like Antifa when they frenzy.
That's precisely what sentencing hearings are for, and I have zero issue with judges exercising discretion and mercy in those settings.
(And as a Chicago resident who saw the city I love hollowed out in 2020 and struggling to come back from the riots and looting there, I'd also have appreciated a MUCH harder line taken by the local prosecutors on the looters and Antifa figures whose actions directly made Chicago 2022 a worse place than Chicago 2019.)
And to be clear, if Biden decided to commute the sentences of the Jan. 6th cannon fodder, I'd have zero problem with it and it might raise Biden's profile in my book a bit. However - drawing on your Les Misérables discussion above - mercy is a gift. It's not mercy if you can do something that you shouldn't be doing (see agency above) and expect the merciful to automatically rescue you from your own poor decisions.
Reminds me of Victor Hugo’s themes of justice vs. mercy
I was going to mention Javert but thought it too dramatic.
I'm pretty sure that while the parties responsible for deluding the mob are most at fault, those that entered the Capitol are responsible for their own actions - and that ignorance of the law is not an excuse.
True but most of those are misdemeanors not deserving of the harsh, authoritarian punishment they are being subjected to
You mean the punishment misdemeanors are deserving of.
The people who wandered in aren't the ones who are getting hit unless they stole or damages the building. Even then the penalty is pretty small. For the most part they are getting fined and lectured and released. Some are getting a little home detention time. If you struck a cop, carried a weapon, or held on conspiracy charges (mostly militia), they are getting the hammer. Contrary to popular belief there are a good many weapon charges. There is a group who went to jail because they were on parole already and broke the conditions of their parole so they have had to serve out their prior sentence. There are a few Sovereign Citizens who are refusing to recognize the authority of the court so they are still held.
Primarily it's the militia members charged with seditious conspiracy, weapons, and those who attacked the police who are getting serious sentences.
The most outstanding thing after reading the court docs is that most of these people were either never before voters, never even voted in 2020, or were previously Obama voters. Mr and Mrs Mainstreet GOP were not there or at least not represented among those arrested.
Not exactly.
https://wskg.org/npr_story_post/a-tale-of-2-radicalizations/the-government-paints-18-year-old-bruno-cua-as-a-violent-young-man-who-breached-the-capitol-assaulted-a-police-officer-and-sat-in-the-vice-presidents-chair-in-the-senate-chamber-defense-lawyers-to/
A better link: https://wskg.org/npr_story_post/a-tale-of-2-radicalizations/
I can perhaps see some mercy in sentencing, but the young man should still be charged and tried. Just because he was deluded by misinformaton does not excuse his attempts to acquire an AR-15; force his way into the Capitol; scuffle/shove police; or take pictures of Congressional documents.
Depends on what that 18-year old adult ('cause you know, legal age of majority and all...) did or didn't do: if they entered the building and did nothing but take a selfie - I'd say be lenient. If they entered and starting breaking/taking/pooping on things, then charge 'em.
Nixon pardoned in spirit of national healing. Trump not likely to be pardoned by Biden.
Trump hasn't been remorseful about his conduct and clearly would do it all over again - with different people next time - if given the choice. If the goal of all of this is National Healing, you shouldn't be looking at the White House for a pardon at this point in time, you should be casting your gaze to Mar-a-Lago and seeing if anyone's taking responsibility down there.
Repentance isn't a strictly Christian concept.
I am fine with letting the legal process grind on and except the results.