Thank you David. A most measured and thought provoking post. The medical case for vaccination is clear to me on a personal, family and community standpoint. Legal precedent exists to support vaccine mandates. It is a balancing act between government police power in a health emergency, and a person's right to choose what medication they are willing to introduce to their bodies, even for their own good health. From a practical standpoint, Congressional action would have been a better route than Executive Orders to pursue vaccine mandates. As David alluded, nothing important will be passed with our present deadlocked Congress. So here we are. My libertarian streak makes me uncomfortable with federal vaccine mandates. Local mandates are more palatable in my mind. It is difficult to large scale mandate vaccinations when a third of our citizens refuse to take them, even if it may save their lives. We will be living with this for a while I am afraid.
A good comparison for mandating vaccinations for contagious diseases is the mandate against driving while under the influence of alcohol/drugs: both are situations where not only is the individual at risk, but is also risking others as well. If it *was* a situation where the individual was risking themselves alone, then there'd be no issue leaving it to each to make that decision.
I agree that individuals can risk themselves they carry the consequences of their behavior and choices solely on their own shoulders. That is rarely the case. There is always that balance of individual freedom vs. greater community. For me it is a difficult balance to strike between forcing people to vaccinate for the greater and I would argue even the individual good. We are fortunate to live an a time where medical technology affords us these vaccines. It is an odd time that so many oppose this measure that we would need to consider mandates. I do think that it is legal, and in a better world, possible to pass mandate legislation, but I would be hard pressed to support them at a Federal level if I were in Congress.
Ok let’s say a legislature passes a law making it a crime to be unvaccinated. And the police were empowered to arrest anyone on articulable proof of not being vaccinated. And the state government was empowered to turn over vaccination records to courts who would then issue warrants against unvaccinated people. Then the police would execute the warrants upon the expiration of some deadline. Or say it’s a daily fine, but when it was not paid, eventually it would turn into the warrant and arrest situation. How many Bill of Rights protections would this violate? Or will we simply open a gulag for those who refuse? All laws are ultimately enforced at the end of barrel of a gun. Mandating something is different than practical application of power. If 80% of the nation agrees to lock up the other 20%, we have a bigger problem than a virus.
Why go immediately to lack of vaccination being a criminal offence? It is much easier to make it extremely inconvenient to be unvaccinated if a vaccine was mandated: e.g. not being able to go to the grocery store, or a restaurant, or use public transportation, etc....
A good example perhaps: vaccinations are required for sending children to public school. Choose not to vaccinate your kids, and they can't go to public school.
Choose not to be vaccinated against COVID/other contagious diseases: accept the consequences of your choice(s).
I'm not sure that the hospitals are overrun with Covid patients who are unvaccinated. I do believe that there are plenty of Covid infected patients in hospitals - exactly where they can infect the most vulnerable among us. I also believe that there would be fewer deaths from Covid complications if everyone vaccinated but there are no guarantees for any individual. My wife's brother-in-law (87, fully vaccinated, with heart problems) died yesterday from pneumonia. He tested positive for Covid and had been in the hospital for nearly two months before he tested positive. He was infected by some other fully vaccinated person while hospitalized.
How would we enforce a vaccination requirement in a constitutional republic? We once had restrictions on TB patients, leprosy patients and the mentally ill. Would we go door to door arresting the rebels and locking them up when we can't even keep the criminally insane off the streets? I wish everyone was smart enough to take care of themselves and their loved ones, but they aren't. Even some who are think that the vaccines are too risky. This pandemic is very divisive. Mandates will not solve the problem.
Fortunately we have numbers for that, if you wanted to make yourself sure.
Regarding the "criminally insane" (besides it being a poor choice of words in my opinion - is it criminal to be insane, or is it a health issue?): we don't exactly use policy to treat people's health issues, because too many don't want to pay for it - even if the total costs would be far less in dollars than it costs to have them on the street. That may be a debate for another day, though.
I'm all for that. What if they refuse treatment? Do we mandate treatment? How do we know when they are "cured"? Do we mandate confinement of some sort until they are "cured"? If not, how do we protect the public from their criminal actions?
We used to: it may be best that we continue to do so, considering the social health aspects of reducing crime and homelessness (these often go hand-in-hand with mental illness).
Right now, our policies are already tilted towards confinement of said persons: just look at how you talk about them yourself. The difference would be throwing them in jail, or throwing them in treatment/support communities.
The issue with mental illness is it's not necessarily a "curable" health issue. They're still citizens that, with assistance, can be beneficial parts of our society - if we really wanted to do so, of course.
I agree that some can become good citizens but only if they are the non-violent type and if they stay on whatever meds are prescribed. I've had to fire a couple of ladies who could not fit in the workplace and exhibited aggressively aberrant behavior when they refused to take their meds. They worked in a job and location with strict fitness for duty requirements for security reasons.
Double-heart and a bunch of fearmongering links. How wonderful...
The fun part re: the news about vaccine efficacy that is of course left out from these peeps: that while natural immunity is more efficacious when it works ('cause natural immunity is not always guaranteed), it also required/requires facing the risks of death, long-term illness, and chronic health issues involved with infection. Vaccination is a much safer course towards reaching herd immunity, as you and I both know and agree upon. :-)
VAERS is an open reporting system, and the information contained has not been verified as being "real".
Let's talk relative risks: do you stand under a tree during a storm? Do you go in the water when a shark has been seen at the beach? Likely the answer to both is "No": and yet you have significantly greater risk of dying from COVID than being struck by lightning/bit by a shark.
Please take your anti-vax fearmongering elsewhere, especially since all you do is post a bunch of BS links and videos and haven't typed a single word.
"The computer which controlled the machines, Skynet, sent two terminators back through time. Their mission: to destroy the leaders of the human Resistance..."
Thank you David. A most measured and thought provoking post. The medical case for vaccination is clear to me on a personal, family and community standpoint. Legal precedent exists to support vaccine mandates. It is a balancing act between government police power in a health emergency, and a person's right to choose what medication they are willing to introduce to their bodies, even for their own good health. From a practical standpoint, Congressional action would have been a better route than Executive Orders to pursue vaccine mandates. As David alluded, nothing important will be passed with our present deadlocked Congress. So here we are. My libertarian streak makes me uncomfortable with federal vaccine mandates. Local mandates are more palatable in my mind. It is difficult to large scale mandate vaccinations when a third of our citizens refuse to take them, even if it may save their lives. We will be living with this for a while I am afraid.
A good comparison for mandating vaccinations for contagious diseases is the mandate against driving while under the influence of alcohol/drugs: both are situations where not only is the individual at risk, but is also risking others as well. If it *was* a situation where the individual was risking themselves alone, then there'd be no issue leaving it to each to make that decision.
I agree that individuals can risk themselves they carry the consequences of their behavior and choices solely on their own shoulders. That is rarely the case. There is always that balance of individual freedom vs. greater community. For me it is a difficult balance to strike between forcing people to vaccinate for the greater and I would argue even the individual good. We are fortunate to live an a time where medical technology affords us these vaccines. It is an odd time that so many oppose this measure that we would need to consider mandates. I do think that it is legal, and in a better world, possible to pass mandate legislation, but I would be hard pressed to support them at a Federal level if I were in Congress.
Ok let’s say a legislature passes a law making it a crime to be unvaccinated. And the police were empowered to arrest anyone on articulable proof of not being vaccinated. And the state government was empowered to turn over vaccination records to courts who would then issue warrants against unvaccinated people. Then the police would execute the warrants upon the expiration of some deadline. Or say it’s a daily fine, but when it was not paid, eventually it would turn into the warrant and arrest situation. How many Bill of Rights protections would this violate? Or will we simply open a gulag for those who refuse? All laws are ultimately enforced at the end of barrel of a gun. Mandating something is different than practical application of power. If 80% of the nation agrees to lock up the other 20%, we have a bigger problem than a virus.
Why go immediately to lack of vaccination being a criminal offence? It is much easier to make it extremely inconvenient to be unvaccinated if a vaccine was mandated: e.g. not being able to go to the grocery store, or a restaurant, or use public transportation, etc....
A good example perhaps: vaccinations are required for sending children to public school. Choose not to vaccinate your kids, and they can't go to public school.
Choose not to be vaccinated against COVID/other contagious diseases: accept the consequences of your choice(s).
I'm not sure that the hospitals are overrun with Covid patients who are unvaccinated. I do believe that there are plenty of Covid infected patients in hospitals - exactly where they can infect the most vulnerable among us. I also believe that there would be fewer deaths from Covid complications if everyone vaccinated but there are no guarantees for any individual. My wife's brother-in-law (87, fully vaccinated, with heart problems) died yesterday from pneumonia. He tested positive for Covid and had been in the hospital for nearly two months before he tested positive. He was infected by some other fully vaccinated person while hospitalized.
How would we enforce a vaccination requirement in a constitutional republic? We once had restrictions on TB patients, leprosy patients and the mentally ill. Would we go door to door arresting the rebels and locking them up when we can't even keep the criminally insane off the streets? I wish everyone was smart enough to take care of themselves and their loved ones, but they aren't. Even some who are think that the vaccines are too risky. This pandemic is very divisive. Mandates will not solve the problem.
Fortunately we have numbers for that, if you wanted to make yourself sure.
Regarding the "criminally insane" (besides it being a poor choice of words in my opinion - is it criminal to be insane, or is it a health issue?): we don't exactly use policy to treat people's health issues, because too many don't want to pay for it - even if the total costs would be far less in dollars than it costs to have them on the street. That may be a debate for another day, though.
I'll revise my statement to refer to them as insane individuals who engage in criminal acts.
Which again comes back to: if they're insane, and they perform criminal acts *because they are insane*, then why aren't we treating their insanity?
I'm all for that. What if they refuse treatment? Do we mandate treatment? How do we know when they are "cured"? Do we mandate confinement of some sort until they are "cured"? If not, how do we protect the public from their criminal actions?
We used to: it may be best that we continue to do so, considering the social health aspects of reducing crime and homelessness (these often go hand-in-hand with mental illness).
Right now, our policies are already tilted towards confinement of said persons: just look at how you talk about them yourself. The difference would be throwing them in jail, or throwing them in treatment/support communities.
The issue with mental illness is it's not necessarily a "curable" health issue. They're still citizens that, with assistance, can be beneficial parts of our society - if we really wanted to do so, of course.
I agree that some can become good citizens but only if they are the non-violent type and if they stay on whatever meds are prescribed. I've had to fire a couple of ladies who could not fit in the workplace and exhibited aggressively aberrant behavior when they refused to take their meds. They worked in a job and location with strict fitness for duty requirements for security reasons.
https://thehighwire.com/videos/mrna-vaccine-inventor-calls-for-stop-of-covid-vax/
https://thehighwire.com/watch/
It's good thing we have Johnson & Johnson (not an mRNA vaccine) if that's a concern for you.
Double-heart and a bunch of fearmongering links. How wonderful...
The fun part re: the news about vaccine efficacy that is of course left out from these peeps: that while natural immunity is more efficacious when it works ('cause natural immunity is not always guaranteed), it also required/requires facing the risks of death, long-term illness, and chronic health issues involved with infection. Vaccination is a much safer course towards reaching herd immunity, as you and I both know and agree upon. :-)
https://openvaers.com/covid-data
https://openvaers.com/covid-data/mortality
https://hpv-vaccine-side-effects.com/covid-19-vaccine-side-effects-world-map
https://www.bitchute.com/video/KbOHvU4n0rO3/
VAERS is an open reporting system, and the information contained has not been verified as being "real".
Let's talk relative risks: do you stand under a tree during a storm? Do you go in the water when a shark has been seen at the beach? Likely the answer to both is "No": and yet you have significantly greater risk of dying from COVID than being struck by lightning/bit by a shark.
Please take your anti-vax fearmongering elsewhere, especially since all you do is post a bunch of BS links and videos and haven't typed a single word.
https://rumble.com/vqx3kb-the-pfizer-inoculations-do-more-harm-than-good.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xROICA8Hr7I
https://filiperafaeli.substack.com/p/preventive-ivermectin-international
https://flccc.substack.com/p/large-peer-reviewed-research-study
https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/new-data-on-vaccine-efficacy-from
https://disinformationchronicle.substack.com/p/pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-clinical
https://palexander.substack.com/p/boomhad-covid-youll-probably-make
https://mariaromana.substack.com/p/the-covid-vaccines-do-i-feel-lucky
The bots have found theracket.
"The computer which controlled the machines, Skynet, sent two terminators back through time. Their mission: to destroy the leaders of the human Resistance..."
wat where
It speaks.
Beep boop.
how dare u;)where's humanity https://tube.source.news/w/rpeK1ciKnvH9zLQGhhYDed
https://planetlockdownfilm.com/documentary/
https://thehighwire.com/videos/mrna-vaccine-inventor-calls-for-stop-of-covid-vax/
https://thehighwire.com/watch/