The problem for the GOP is post-second Impeachment, the Party dug itself a hole so deep with respect to Trump is that the only way out of the long dead-end they've driven themselves is for Trump to shuffle off his mortal coil. Trump will not gracefully give up the power the cowards in the GOP have surrendered to him, and between January 6th and his actions since then, the 2024 presidential election (should Trump or a close flunky run) will not be a referendum on Joe Biden's tenure over the past four years, but whether America is willing to put an unabashed authoritarian in charge who has proven himself unconcerned and disloyal to the fundamental axioms of self-governance that America is built around. Americans will have to decide whether they're ready to toss out two and a half centuries of democratic exceptionalism for a Dollar Store Vladimir Putin wannabe.
For all the crap that's coming out related to January 6th and Trump's role in attempting to subvert our election, I am heartened by the fact that it was SO blatant that it's unlikely to flip more people into his column for the next go-around. Any room to quibble over trivial details has been wiped away to the point where when Trump is on the ticket, you're either CLEARLY for preserving and continuing our Republic OR you're fine tossing all that away in favor of stupid tribal politics ("he's a bastard, but he's OUR bastard").
I haven't been a fan of Team Biden for quite some time, but if the choice is Biden (or God forbid Harris) in 2024 versus Trump, I will have NO problem pulling the lever for the Democrats. I may disagree with them and I may think that they govern poorly at times, but I don't have to doubt their commitment to the same basic idea of "America" that I know the former guy is actively working to tear down.
But it won't be Trump. It will be DeSantis. Someone with just as strong authoritarian vibes and just as little respect for the constitution. And even between 2024 and now we have 2022 when Republicans will try everything they can to pretend 1/6 isn't even a date anymore. Or like Steve Berman say that the democrats are politicizing it. And if they win 2022 they will disband that committee and then what? Where do you stand with a party that will bury an attack against our country?
Just wondering because what decent conservatives do will decide whether this country lives through this.
When it was his chance to futz with the election results in 2016, Joe Biden had none of it and certified Trump as POTUS. As Trump has made increasingly clear - instead of keeping his stupid mouth shut - he would not have done that and has been clear that he thinks that Mike Pence was wrong to do what Biden did for Trump.
At the core of the idea of "America" is that voters pick who make the decisions, not the other way around. Biden affirmed that principle in 2016, and Trump continues to fight against it. That's plenty of "action" for me to judge.
I agree voters make the decisions. I stand by my opinion that democrat progressives have an agenda to fundamentally transform America into something I dislike. They say as much and their legislative proposals reflect the same. I think if we continue to elect them, they have a chance of succeeding.
I do not think there is a chance in hell Donald Trump or any other misguided individual will change the way we select leaders. What counts is the policies of those elected. The only efforts I see to stifle disagreement with policies is coming from democrats.
"I do not think there is a chance in hell Donald Trump or any other misguided individual will change the way we select leaders."
That's not for a lack of trying. I'm not going to give someone like that a second chance.
Also note that this doesn't have to be a world where we elect either Democrats or autocrats. If enough members of the GOP found the courage to tell Donnie to f-off to Mar a Lago, then we'd be in a world where we're evaluating Dems' vision for America against the GOP's vision for America. As it stands now, at least the Democrats can guarantee that they're not going to overturn our democratic system, where the GOP is failing time after time in meeting that low bar.
You think democrats are guaranteeing they are not attempting to transform America into an authoritarian socialist system? I truly believe they are and do not see any future agreement on what their intent is. The democrat party will eventually do the will of the majority of those who vote for them. Conservatives voting for them might put them over the top but will not change their direction.
The same type of arguments used against Trump (mostly false but some true) will be used against any Republican nominee and the same people will be swayed by them. Few days go by without attempts to smear Ron DeSantis. Most are outright lies.
If I think the Democrats are going in an authoritarian direction, I can vote for their opponent and if their opponent gets more votes, I can be confident that the Democrats will go back to their private lives.
If the Trump Republicans (as opposed to GOP members like Romney, Cheney, and Kinzinger) go in an authoritarian direction, the votes that we cast for their opponents are meaningless, as those GOP members are proving daily that they think it's okay to tamper with the vote until they get the result they want (i.e. retaining power).
If you're concerned that Democrats are taking the country in the wrong direction, BACK THE REPUBLICANS THAT RESPECT ELECTIONS. Quit backing Trump and his cronies and work on getting normal Republicans back on the ballot and in power in the party so that people who disagree with Democrats' direction, yet want to live in a democratic republic, have a place to go.
If I saw as much energy go into defending and supporting the Anti-Sedition Caucus of the GOP (Cheney et al.) that goes into defending and making excuses for Trump, I'd have some faith that the GOP is back on the right path. However, as this week's RNC vote censuring Cheney and Kinzinger demonstrates, the GOP has a LONG WAY to go before they recover ANY credibility that they're not aspiring authoritarians themselves.
The problem for the GOP is post-second Impeachment, the Party dug itself a hole so deep with respect to Trump is that the only way out of the long dead-end they've driven themselves is for Trump to shuffle off his mortal coil. Trump will not gracefully give up the power the cowards in the GOP have surrendered to him, and between January 6th and his actions since then, the 2024 presidential election (should Trump or a close flunky run) will not be a referendum on Joe Biden's tenure over the past four years, but whether America is willing to put an unabashed authoritarian in charge who has proven himself unconcerned and disloyal to the fundamental axioms of self-governance that America is built around. Americans will have to decide whether they're ready to toss out two and a half centuries of democratic exceptionalism for a Dollar Store Vladimir Putin wannabe.
For all the crap that's coming out related to January 6th and Trump's role in attempting to subvert our election, I am heartened by the fact that it was SO blatant that it's unlikely to flip more people into his column for the next go-around. Any room to quibble over trivial details has been wiped away to the point where when Trump is on the ticket, you're either CLEARLY for preserving and continuing our Republic OR you're fine tossing all that away in favor of stupid tribal politics ("he's a bastard, but he's OUR bastard").
I haven't been a fan of Team Biden for quite some time, but if the choice is Biden (or God forbid Harris) in 2024 versus Trump, I will have NO problem pulling the lever for the Democrats. I may disagree with them and I may think that they govern poorly at times, but I don't have to doubt their commitment to the same basic idea of "America" that I know the former guy is actively working to tear down.
But it won't be Trump. It will be DeSantis. Someone with just as strong authoritarian vibes and just as little respect for the constitution. And even between 2024 and now we have 2022 when Republicans will try everything they can to pretend 1/6 isn't even a date anymore. Or like Steve Berman say that the democrats are politicizing it. And if they win 2022 they will disband that committee and then what? Where do you stand with a party that will bury an attack against our country?
Just wondering because what decent conservatives do will decide whether this country lives through this.
"I don't have to doubt their commitment to the same basic idea of "America""
So you are taking their word for it instead of judging their actions and agenda.
When it was his chance to futz with the election results in 2016, Joe Biden had none of it and certified Trump as POTUS. As Trump has made increasingly clear - instead of keeping his stupid mouth shut - he would not have done that and has been clear that he thinks that Mike Pence was wrong to do what Biden did for Trump.
At the core of the idea of "America" is that voters pick who make the decisions, not the other way around. Biden affirmed that principle in 2016, and Trump continues to fight against it. That's plenty of "action" for me to judge.
I agree voters make the decisions. I stand by my opinion that democrat progressives have an agenda to fundamentally transform America into something I dislike. They say as much and their legislative proposals reflect the same. I think if we continue to elect them, they have a chance of succeeding.
I do not think there is a chance in hell Donald Trump or any other misguided individual will change the way we select leaders. What counts is the policies of those elected. The only efforts I see to stifle disagreement with policies is coming from democrats.
"I do not think there is a chance in hell Donald Trump or any other misguided individual will change the way we select leaders."
That's not for a lack of trying. I'm not going to give someone like that a second chance.
Also note that this doesn't have to be a world where we elect either Democrats or autocrats. If enough members of the GOP found the courage to tell Donnie to f-off to Mar a Lago, then we'd be in a world where we're evaluating Dems' vision for America against the GOP's vision for America. As it stands now, at least the Democrats can guarantee that they're not going to overturn our democratic system, where the GOP is failing time after time in meeting that low bar.
You think democrats are guaranteeing they are not attempting to transform America into an authoritarian socialist system? I truly believe they are and do not see any future agreement on what their intent is. The democrat party will eventually do the will of the majority of those who vote for them. Conservatives voting for them might put them over the top but will not change their direction.
The same type of arguments used against Trump (mostly false but some true) will be used against any Republican nominee and the same people will be swayed by them. Few days go by without attempts to smear Ron DeSantis. Most are outright lies.
If I think the Democrats are going in an authoritarian direction, I can vote for their opponent and if their opponent gets more votes, I can be confident that the Democrats will go back to their private lives.
If the Trump Republicans (as opposed to GOP members like Romney, Cheney, and Kinzinger) go in an authoritarian direction, the votes that we cast for their opponents are meaningless, as those GOP members are proving daily that they think it's okay to tamper with the vote until they get the result they want (i.e. retaining power).
If you're concerned that Democrats are taking the country in the wrong direction, BACK THE REPUBLICANS THAT RESPECT ELECTIONS. Quit backing Trump and his cronies and work on getting normal Republicans back on the ballot and in power in the party so that people who disagree with Democrats' direction, yet want to live in a democratic republic, have a place to go.
If I saw as much energy go into defending and supporting the Anti-Sedition Caucus of the GOP (Cheney et al.) that goes into defending and making excuses for Trump, I'd have some faith that the GOP is back on the right path. However, as this week's RNC vote censuring Cheney and Kinzinger demonstrates, the GOP has a LONG WAY to go before they recover ANY credibility that they're not aspiring authoritarians themselves.
None of this is rocket surgery.
It really would be nice if the Democrats had a communications department that could maybe get this word out to the general population.