At which point do the prophetic messages break as mankind moves further and further away from Biblical contexts?
For example, assume that the current private space race provides us with a jolt and mankind begins colonizing the Solar System within the next 200 years (during which, the final End Times fails to materialize). Given that mankind is spread beyond Earth, thinks like Wormwood (for example) and the poisoning of a third of the world's waters becomes a bit less serious than it would be now? At what point does The Book of Revelation slip from "vision" to "poetry" as already has happened with Genesis in your case?
Asking because it seems like prophecy in religion has a nice short term effect in boosting compliance and belief, but that peters out and becomes a negative as time goes on and the prophecies make less and less sense, given the context shifts over time.
Good question. The context of Biblical prophecy encompasses our known world, our history and our future. That's a pretty big context. At it's most distant point, the Bible is simply silent about things outside of the writer's ability to comprehend it. If you want to be really confused, read Ezekiel's vision in Syria. Really freaky stuff. Some things Isaiah and Ezekiel and John saw in visions could easily be contextualized as space aliens, though those people had no modern concept of space.
Where we have issues is when leaders in the church take Biblical text and doctrine, and extend it into areas outside the Biblical context. For example, that the Earth was the center of the universe and the Sun orbits the Earth. None of that is in the Bible, yet it became heresy to contradict it.
If something happens in reality that definitively contradicts the Bible, in its own context, then that would be a game changer. But what would you say that would be? I mean, people coming back from the dead and declaring there is no afterlife would rather prove the Bible than disprove it. Space aliens would neither prove not disprove the Bible (although Mormons may disagree).
The Bible itself predicts that most people will move on and the world system will abandon the Christian faith. I daresay that when it happens, the Bible is more proved than disproved by it. Jesus said his return would be as a "thief in the night." Nobody will expect it other than people who are always expecting it. That's the primary argument for faith in the End Times. If you choose to follow "fire insurance" Christianity and decide you'll believe when you see the signs of His return, you'll either be terribly disappointed and walk away from the faith, or you'll get complacent and lose your faith at the point of testing.
Unfortunately, there is no way to approach the question without faith. God gave us free will and faith is the currency we owe to God in exchange for His payment of our sin.
I've been through a lot as a Christian, including backsliding on living in faith. I've seen so many walk away. But if you're trying to tell me I'm wrong about living in faith to God and Christ, you're too late.
I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong about anything or pull you away from your faith. If it works for you, great. I just saw the your mention of Genesis as poetry vs. Revelation as vision as a decent way of framing an issue that's been rolling around in my head for a while.
Given the example of Genesis, I think you've already answered the question of what happens in the case of a contradiction, in this case, Young Earth Creationism vs. everyone else. In that case, we've seen the story of the origin of the universe be interpreted as poetry, especially as a literal 6-day story becomes harder to justify. I've seen some similar explanations for Revelation, especially along the lines that it ALREADY happened, so that process may already be well underway, if not evenly distributed.
In any case, this has been a topic I've pondered for decades, as a bored child in the pews, the "exciting" parts of the Bible became my distraction from the Baptist sermons about hellfire and the Assembly of God altar calls that went well into the afternoon. The "faith" part never took hold in me, but you are correct in it being the keystone that holds the rest of it up. If you didn't need faith to be a believer, then what awesome power could God have that subordinated Nature to Him instead of vice versa?
Some people need long altar calls. Some need to be slammed with stories of hellfire. Unfortunately for our professionally run and slickly packaged churches, not everyone needs them all the time. Same for messages on God’s unending grace, the importance of worship, study, repentance, etc. There is no one brand fits all Christianity. There is one Holy Spirit who knows what we each need at every moment however. If we spent more time listening to Him and loving each other versus designing programs and teachings for sale, I expect the church would have more success.
Out of all the cons I witnessed while at church I think the "end times" lie has done the most damage. Now christians have been telling themselves they were in the end times for basically all of their history. it has become the ultimate cop out. Fix climate change? Just hasten the return of Christ. True lasting Peace? Not until the return of the "Prince of Peace", so why try. On and on their excuses pile up.
It's really just a way for people to ignore the state of the world.
Only one person has been right about the end times so far and that's Dr. Strange.
Biblically speaking, we have been in the “end times” since the Holy Spirit descended on the Upper Room. This is the Age we are in. Predicting the exact date or events is futile. We don’t know. But we do know the Age from the Bible. It is the End Times and we do win.
I wish I had known more who had your way of looking at things. That, at least, isn't absurd to the point of stupidity. As far as you "winning". I hope you are right, although there have been countless humans just as sure as you who came to a different conclusion.
We will all find out together if I (and 2,000 years of Christians who have lived) am right. We will all not care separately if I am wrong. Since there is no benefit to being wrong and living for Christ (other than never knowing that my own experience and study were futile), but an enormous consequence for being wrong about Christ and Hell and the End Times and living as if it's futile, I choose Pascal's Wager, to live in accordance with my experience and study, which is faith.
At which point do the prophetic messages break as mankind moves further and further away from Biblical contexts?
For example, assume that the current private space race provides us with a jolt and mankind begins colonizing the Solar System within the next 200 years (during which, the final End Times fails to materialize). Given that mankind is spread beyond Earth, thinks like Wormwood (for example) and the poisoning of a third of the world's waters becomes a bit less serious than it would be now? At what point does The Book of Revelation slip from "vision" to "poetry" as already has happened with Genesis in your case?
Asking because it seems like prophecy in religion has a nice short term effect in boosting compliance and belief, but that peters out and becomes a negative as time goes on and the prophecies make less and less sense, given the context shifts over time.
Good question. The context of Biblical prophecy encompasses our known world, our history and our future. That's a pretty big context. At it's most distant point, the Bible is simply silent about things outside of the writer's ability to comprehend it. If you want to be really confused, read Ezekiel's vision in Syria. Really freaky stuff. Some things Isaiah and Ezekiel and John saw in visions could easily be contextualized as space aliens, though those people had no modern concept of space.
Where we have issues is when leaders in the church take Biblical text and doctrine, and extend it into areas outside the Biblical context. For example, that the Earth was the center of the universe and the Sun orbits the Earth. None of that is in the Bible, yet it became heresy to contradict it.
If something happens in reality that definitively contradicts the Bible, in its own context, then that would be a game changer. But what would you say that would be? I mean, people coming back from the dead and declaring there is no afterlife would rather prove the Bible than disprove it. Space aliens would neither prove not disprove the Bible (although Mormons may disagree).
The Bible itself predicts that most people will move on and the world system will abandon the Christian faith. I daresay that when it happens, the Bible is more proved than disproved by it. Jesus said his return would be as a "thief in the night." Nobody will expect it other than people who are always expecting it. That's the primary argument for faith in the End Times. If you choose to follow "fire insurance" Christianity and decide you'll believe when you see the signs of His return, you'll either be terribly disappointed and walk away from the faith, or you'll get complacent and lose your faith at the point of testing.
Unfortunately, there is no way to approach the question without faith. God gave us free will and faith is the currency we owe to God in exchange for His payment of our sin.
I've been through a lot as a Christian, including backsliding on living in faith. I've seen so many walk away. But if you're trying to tell me I'm wrong about living in faith to God and Christ, you're too late.
I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong about anything or pull you away from your faith. If it works for you, great. I just saw the your mention of Genesis as poetry vs. Revelation as vision as a decent way of framing an issue that's been rolling around in my head for a while.
Given the example of Genesis, I think you've already answered the question of what happens in the case of a contradiction, in this case, Young Earth Creationism vs. everyone else. In that case, we've seen the story of the origin of the universe be interpreted as poetry, especially as a literal 6-day story becomes harder to justify. I've seen some similar explanations for Revelation, especially along the lines that it ALREADY happened, so that process may already be well underway, if not evenly distributed.
In any case, this has been a topic I've pondered for decades, as a bored child in the pews, the "exciting" parts of the Bible became my distraction from the Baptist sermons about hellfire and the Assembly of God altar calls that went well into the afternoon. The "faith" part never took hold in me, but you are correct in it being the keystone that holds the rest of it up. If you didn't need faith to be a believer, then what awesome power could God have that subordinated Nature to Him instead of vice versa?
Some people need long altar calls. Some need to be slammed with stories of hellfire. Unfortunately for our professionally run and slickly packaged churches, not everyone needs them all the time. Same for messages on God’s unending grace, the importance of worship, study, repentance, etc. There is no one brand fits all Christianity. There is one Holy Spirit who knows what we each need at every moment however. If we spent more time listening to Him and loving each other versus designing programs and teachings for sale, I expect the church would have more success.
Out of all the cons I witnessed while at church I think the "end times" lie has done the most damage. Now christians have been telling themselves they were in the end times for basically all of their history. it has become the ultimate cop out. Fix climate change? Just hasten the return of Christ. True lasting Peace? Not until the return of the "Prince of Peace", so why try. On and on their excuses pile up.
It's really just a way for people to ignore the state of the world.
Only one person has been right about the end times so far and that's Dr. Strange.
Biblically speaking, we have been in the “end times” since the Holy Spirit descended on the Upper Room. This is the Age we are in. Predicting the exact date or events is futile. We don’t know. But we do know the Age from the Bible. It is the End Times and we do win.
I wish I had known more who had your way of looking at things. That, at least, isn't absurd to the point of stupidity. As far as you "winning". I hope you are right, although there have been countless humans just as sure as you who came to a different conclusion.
We will all find out together if I (and 2,000 years of Christians who have lived) am right. We will all not care separately if I am wrong. Since there is no benefit to being wrong and living for Christ (other than never knowing that my own experience and study were futile), but an enormous consequence for being wrong about Christ and Hell and the End Times and living as if it's futile, I choose Pascal's Wager, to live in accordance with my experience and study, which is faith.