You do know David, we shouldn't even be having this discussion. We should be sliding safely into home with new cases down to nothing and hospitalizations and death a thing of the past. That's how bad this is, because we are headed in the wrong direction and there's no end in sight.
To trump's credit (and i rarely say that) he was the guy that pushed the fast tracking. That alone should have insured we got there. It was never a right/left thing; or at least it never should have been. I'm sorry but every one of the anti-vaxxer's and right wing windbags have helped create the shitshow we are trapped in.
If that's not bad enough, it gets worse. What is the long term impact on those of you that contracted it? Hopefully nothing, but no one knows for sure. Will it take years off your life? Will it crop up and cause issues that smolder and flare? Will it keep you from doing things down the road? That alone is frightening enough to make people take it seriously.
Sadly, we aren't a whole lot better off than we were a year ago. Yes, we're open, but at what cost? I hate, HATE to say this, but for many this is nothing more than a con to keep trump voters close. For others it's the gambit they can attach to Biden and say he failed.
Societally we are all losers. When playing politics becomes more important than saving peoples lives it screams we have become fools and dummies. Yet brother...here we are. How sad?
I fully agree that everyone who does not have a medical contraindication should rush to get the vaccine. While it's true that there are many anti-vaxxers and naysaying windbags, their politics vary. They are not just the right. My guess is that many of the unvaccinated are minorities. Many others are youngsters who would rather risk the virus than an experimental vaccine.
And yes, those who do not trust government experiments probably tend to be conservative. It's their nature. We need a fast-track program to resolve any issues that continue to require an "emergency use" designator for the vaccine. I do think emergency use is justified for the elderly but it's not that clear for a lot of younger people. As for me, I trust J&J, Moderna and Pfizer more than I trust the Feds.
I think given that the rate of vaccination is not uniform, varying greatly depending on the locality and region one lives in here in the US, that localized mitigations will be a come and go, and based on regions of high spread, for probably for the rest of this year, and maybe part of the upcoming year, based on where our circumstances are currently. The good news we are seeing is that many businesses, corporations, and educational institutions(both private and public), are taking the lead in requiring their employees and students to be vaccinated. At our leadership meeting where I work, we approved a mandatory Covid-19 vaccination policy on condition of being employed. It was unanimous, and when we brought that matter forth to the rest of our employees, everyone was unanimously on board with it without any reservations. Most everyone was already vaccinated, so that is great news on our part.
I think things will get better as time goes by, but this emergence from the pandemic will be a two steps forward, and one or one and a half steps backwards. It's unfortunate that this pandemic and vaccines had to be politicized, but I think as you mentioned David, cooler and more rational heads will prevail over time, and people will adapt accordingly.
I am amazed you did not see this coming over a year ago. It was pretty obvious. It would not have been very appetizing to imagine this coming without the vaccine (1% mortality) but with the vaccine and with tremendous success vaccinating the populations that is at highest risk, the future of covid is a average flu year. That is why the latest round of government hysteria is so laughable. Life has risks, get over it.
When jurisdictions like Texas are asking for help from out-of-state and suspending elective medical procedures[1], that's a pretty clear sign that things aren't under control and some alarm is merited.
I can't recall the last time (in my lifetime) that the flu did that.
Go look at the Texas state website that shows hospital load. You will see that newsweek is spinning this the wrong way. No argument that Texas is looking for help in its hospitals but McDonalds is looking for help in all of there establishments also. See the connection?
Go to the Texas state web site for hospital data. The only source that is data driven. Round figures there are 10k covid patients in texas hospitals, there are 60k beds in texas hospitals.
Now you think that all covid patients are in icu's. Jesus, get a grip. Somehow I managed to find the Texas State Web site with covid/capacity data, you are a smart guy, you can likely find it.
I have to say, after months of observation, research and discussion, people who are frightened of this virus will always be frightened of this virus. It does not matter what data shows or experts say, fear is overwhelming. I am sorry for your position but this virus will not be disappearing so if you don't get a grip, you are looking at the remainder of your life being in fear of breathing.
Texas is facing the same hiring problems that are present across the nation. McDonalds is able to brings people in off the streets due to the nature of the job. Can't really do that for hospitals can you? Hence looking out of state for experienced people. I suspect that if we could cut through the covid paranoia, more people would come out of their little rabbit holes and do the job they are capable of. That is what McDonalds has to do with Hospitals.
McDonalds is looking for employees who will stick around. Hospitals are looking for temporary additional help to manage the surge in patients (from COVID) to get past this wave - not to stick around. The only person who seems to think that this is Texas's new status quo seems to be you. (I'm pretty sure Greg Abbott asking to have elective surgeries paused isn't the new normal in Texas.)
When people say that the future of Covid will be akin to an average flu year, requires the assumption that enough will be vaxxed to achieve a reasonable level of herd immunity. We are far from that, unfortunately. Texas, Louisiana and many pockets of the deep south are having their hospitals being overwhelmed. I've heard of many stories of patients for non-Covid issues having to drive or be transported hundreds of miles to find an availability at at hospital.
You are missing the big picture, the best immunity to the virus is natural immunity gained through infection. Everyone that is close to it agrees that this is the case. Herd immunity is achievable and almost inevitable with a virus that behave like this one does.
Except, no: neither natural or herd immunity is guaranteed to be better, to last for an appreciable amount of time, or to even take hold. Just look at influenza and the COVID variants: they evolve to evade immunity in general. Look at polio, syphilis, HPV, HSV, etc....
And no, not everyone or even a majority agree that natural immunity is the best. Herd immunity can be reached with vaccines: look at polio and smallpox for relevant examples in the US.
This is one of the big problems with this public discourse. People that don't have a clue, have an opinion and are not afraid to yell it from the rooftops. Covid virus has NOTHING in common with the polio, syphilis, HPV, HSV, etc.... virus's. Check out this video from an actual Doctor of Medicine.
Your link doesn't work, and you ignore the point entirely considering none of those viruses (excepting varicella and HSV [both herpes viruses]) are similar to each other.
The point is that we don't have anywhere near enough info on the long-term effects and hazards of COVID, while having a good understanding of the risks involved with vaccines. If you're doing a real risk analysis (which has to take into account the ever-changing nature of the virus), then you will inevitably come to the conclusion that getting everyone vaccinated that can be is the best course of action.
And as you say, one should be talking to doctors about their care - and the vast majority will tell you to get vaccinated.
Varicella: causes chickenpox. Goes latent in the body and resurfaces years later as shingles.
HPV: causes warts, including genital/anal warts. Can also cause some cancers. Goes latent in the body and resurfaces over and over.
HSV, aka herpes: causes sores in the mouth and genitals. Goes latent in the body, resurfaces over and over.
Epstein-Barr: causes mononucleosis. Goes latent, reactivates over the years.
HIV: causes AIDS. Goes latent, recurs frequently.
COVID: no idea how long it stays in the body, whether it goes latent and reactivates over time. Little/no info on long term effects in general, because it's so new.
We have vaccines for some of the above viruses. Those vaccines all have the risk of complications occurring, generally within a short period immediately following vaccination.
You also ignore that the more people in hospital beds with COVID, the more likely someone with a heart attack can't be admitted and treated. You're myopic focus on direct mortality leads you to ignore indirect mortality and morbidity.
Really good points made about the effects of latency. That is what concerns me.
I think we can safely say that the potential complications from vaccines are far outweighed by the risks of the potential reactivation of latent diseases for the unvaxxed. Especially since Covid is a new phenomenon that we are learning as we go and don't know as much about. It is frankly amazing that we got some very effective vaccines in the amount of time that we did. I agree with you, that vaccination is the way we need to go.
Therapeutics are being slowed by the governments and FDA efforts to control the public's actions. If you listen to doctor's on the front line you will see that we can control this disease much more effectively than we are. This can results in overcoming the problems with hospitals that we are being led to believe are occurring. A quick look at the Texas hospital situation shows that as of yesterday there are 10.5K covid confirmed patients in Texas hospitals with a total bed capacity of 62.8K. Does not seem like a covid disaster to me. I don't have any idea of long term effects and as you point out, many virus infections have long lasting effects. To this point, I just want to remind you to remember where this came from. Don't get mad at me and people that question these irresponsible bureaucrats, get pissed at China and start demanding that they be held responsible for the millions that died. If you want to throw Fauci in there for his backdoor funding of this research, I am good with that also.
God help us gang, what the hell is wrong with you all. There's only been 37 million cases in the US and only 635.5 million dead. "It's just the flu." And for freaking cripes sake, get a grip and place the blame where it belongs, get angry at China and at Fauci...it's all their fault.
May someone have mercy on your poor pathetic soul Lawrence because it sure as hell won't be me. Get in line with the rest of the charlatan's preaching their nonsense. You'll fit right it.
You do know David, we shouldn't even be having this discussion. We should be sliding safely into home with new cases down to nothing and hospitalizations and death a thing of the past. That's how bad this is, because we are headed in the wrong direction and there's no end in sight.
To trump's credit (and i rarely say that) he was the guy that pushed the fast tracking. That alone should have insured we got there. It was never a right/left thing; or at least it never should have been. I'm sorry but every one of the anti-vaxxer's and right wing windbags have helped create the shitshow we are trapped in.
If that's not bad enough, it gets worse. What is the long term impact on those of you that contracted it? Hopefully nothing, but no one knows for sure. Will it take years off your life? Will it crop up and cause issues that smolder and flare? Will it keep you from doing things down the road? That alone is frightening enough to make people take it seriously.
Sadly, we aren't a whole lot better off than we were a year ago. Yes, we're open, but at what cost? I hate, HATE to say this, but for many this is nothing more than a con to keep trump voters close. For others it's the gambit they can attach to Biden and say he failed.
Societally we are all losers. When playing politics becomes more important than saving peoples lives it screams we have become fools and dummies. Yet brother...here we are. How sad?
I fully agree that everyone who does not have a medical contraindication should rush to get the vaccine. While it's true that there are many anti-vaxxers and naysaying windbags, their politics vary. They are not just the right. My guess is that many of the unvaccinated are minorities. Many others are youngsters who would rather risk the virus than an experimental vaccine.
And yes, those who do not trust government experiments probably tend to be conservative. It's their nature. We need a fast-track program to resolve any issues that continue to require an "emergency use" designator for the vaccine. I do think emergency use is justified for the elderly but it's not that clear for a lot of younger people. As for me, I trust J&J, Moderna and Pfizer more than I trust the Feds.
Also look at influenza: we have to create a new vaccine yearly as it evolves and mutates. If COVID does become endemic, then expect a yearly booster.
Which leads to a good question: will flu shots also become required? Would it make sense to require them if a mRNA version is approved?
That's kind of what I'm thinking these days, with COVID annual booster shots being a realistic probability.
I think given that the rate of vaccination is not uniform, varying greatly depending on the locality and region one lives in here in the US, that localized mitigations will be a come and go, and based on regions of high spread, for probably for the rest of this year, and maybe part of the upcoming year, based on where our circumstances are currently. The good news we are seeing is that many businesses, corporations, and educational institutions(both private and public), are taking the lead in requiring their employees and students to be vaccinated. At our leadership meeting where I work, we approved a mandatory Covid-19 vaccination policy on condition of being employed. It was unanimous, and when we brought that matter forth to the rest of our employees, everyone was unanimously on board with it without any reservations. Most everyone was already vaccinated, so that is great news on our part.
I think things will get better as time goes by, but this emergence from the pandemic will be a two steps forward, and one or one and a half steps backwards. It's unfortunate that this pandemic and vaccines had to be politicized, but I think as you mentioned David, cooler and more rational heads will prevail over time, and people will adapt accordingly.
I am amazed you did not see this coming over a year ago. It was pretty obvious. It would not have been very appetizing to imagine this coming without the vaccine (1% mortality) but with the vaccine and with tremendous success vaccinating the populations that is at highest risk, the future of covid is a average flu year. That is why the latest round of government hysteria is so laughable. Life has risks, get over it.
When jurisdictions like Texas are asking for help from out-of-state and suspending elective medical procedures[1], that's a pretty clear sign that things aren't under control and some alarm is merited.
I can't recall the last time (in my lifetime) that the flu did that.
[1] https://www.newsweek.com/greg-abbott-brings-out-state-medics-covid-cases-hospitalizations-spike-texas-1617726
Go look at the Texas state website that shows hospital load. You will see that newsweek is spinning this the wrong way. No argument that Texas is looking for help in its hospitals but McDonalds is looking for help in all of there establishments also. See the connection?
So how about the Texas Tribune?
https://www.texastribune.org/2021/08/10/coronavirus-texas-hospitals-icu-beds/
Or Austin American-Statesman?
https://www.statesman.com/story/news/local/2021/08/10/covid-surge-update-central-texas-hospitals-down-2-staffed-icu-beds/5551739001/
Or Dallas Morning News?
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/public-health/2021/08/10/in-north-texas-intensive-care-bed-space-is-running-out-only-2-pediatric-icu-spots-remain-in-region/
Or this kid having to be airlifted?
https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/patient-flow/11-month-old-covid-19-patient-airlifted-from-full-hospital-in-houston.html
Go to the Texas state web site for hospital data. The only source that is data driven. Round figures there are 10k covid patients in texas hospitals, there are 60k beds in texas hospitals.
How about providing a direct link to support the things you state? And: how many are staffed ICU beds?
Now you think that all covid patients are in icu's. Jesus, get a grip. Somehow I managed to find the Texas State Web site with covid/capacity data, you are a smart guy, you can likely find it.
I have to say, after months of observation, research and discussion, people who are frightened of this virus will always be frightened of this virus. It does not matter what data shows or experts say, fear is overwhelming. I am sorry for your position but this virus will not be disappearing so if you don't get a grip, you are looking at the remainder of your life being in fear of breathing.
Texas Tribune? I know this is from Breitbart. You can ignore it or check it out.
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/08/12/texas-tribune-corrects-claim-coronavirus-hospitalized-5800-children-in-a-week/
When's the last time your local McDonalds issued a public plea for temporary workers from out of state to deal with the surge in fast food demand?
Texas is facing the same hiring problems that are present across the nation. McDonalds is able to brings people in off the streets due to the nature of the job. Can't really do that for hospitals can you? Hence looking out of state for experienced people. I suspect that if we could cut through the covid paranoia, more people would come out of their little rabbit holes and do the job they are capable of. That is what McDonalds has to do with Hospitals.
McDonalds is looking for employees who will stick around. Hospitals are looking for temporary additional help to manage the surge in patients (from COVID) to get past this wave - not to stick around. The only person who seems to think that this is Texas's new status quo seems to be you. (I'm pretty sure Greg Abbott asking to have elective surgeries paused isn't the new normal in Texas.)
In any case, You do You. Let it not be said that I ever got in the way of Natural Selection doing its thing.
When people say that the future of Covid will be akin to an average flu year, requires the assumption that enough will be vaxxed to achieve a reasonable level of herd immunity. We are far from that, unfortunately. Texas, Louisiana and many pockets of the deep south are having their hospitals being overwhelmed. I've heard of many stories of patients for non-Covid issues having to drive or be transported hundreds of miles to find an availability at at hospital.
You are missing the big picture, the best immunity to the virus is natural immunity gained through infection. Everyone that is close to it agrees that this is the case. Herd immunity is achievable and almost inevitable with a virus that behave like this one does.
Except, no: neither natural or herd immunity is guaranteed to be better, to last for an appreciable amount of time, or to even take hold. Just look at influenza and the COVID variants: they evolve to evade immunity in general. Look at polio, syphilis, HPV, HSV, etc....
And no, not everyone or even a majority agree that natural immunity is the best. Herd immunity can be reached with vaccines: look at polio and smallpox for relevant examples in the US.
This is one of the big problems with this public discourse. People that don't have a clue, have an opinion and are not afraid to yell it from the rooftops. Covid virus has NOTHING in common with the polio, syphilis, HPV, HSV, etc.... virus's. Check out this video from an actual Doctor of Medicine.
https://www.facebook.com/messenger_media/?thread_id=100002324740210&attachment_id=258515782519125&message_id=mid.%24cAAAAAKvxz-uBaAR5fF7Nr4mXkzQz
LOL did you just complain about people talking who aren't experts and then try and post a link to facebook?
Your link doesn't work, and you ignore the point entirely considering none of those viruses (excepting varicella and HSV [both herpes viruses]) are similar to each other.
The point is that we don't have anywhere near enough info on the long-term effects and hazards of COVID, while having a good understanding of the risks involved with vaccines. If you're doing a real risk analysis (which has to take into account the ever-changing nature of the virus), then you will inevitably come to the conclusion that getting everyone vaccinated that can be is the best course of action.
And as you say, one should be talking to doctors about their care - and the vast majority will tell you to get vaccinated.
Varicella: causes chickenpox. Goes latent in the body and resurfaces years later as shingles.
HPV: causes warts, including genital/anal warts. Can also cause some cancers. Goes latent in the body and resurfaces over and over.
HSV, aka herpes: causes sores in the mouth and genitals. Goes latent in the body, resurfaces over and over.
Epstein-Barr: causes mononucleosis. Goes latent, reactivates over the years.
HIV: causes AIDS. Goes latent, recurs frequently.
COVID: no idea how long it stays in the body, whether it goes latent and reactivates over time. Little/no info on long term effects in general, because it's so new.
We have vaccines for some of the above viruses. Those vaccines all have the risk of complications occurring, generally within a short period immediately following vaccination.
You also ignore that the more people in hospital beds with COVID, the more likely someone with a heart attack can't be admitted and treated. You're myopic focus on direct mortality leads you to ignore indirect mortality and morbidity.
Get everyone vaccinated that can be.
Really good points made about the effects of latency. That is what concerns me.
I think we can safely say that the potential complications from vaccines are far outweighed by the risks of the potential reactivation of latent diseases for the unvaxxed. Especially since Covid is a new phenomenon that we are learning as we go and don't know as much about. It is frankly amazing that we got some very effective vaccines in the amount of time that we did. I agree with you, that vaccination is the way we need to go.
Therapeutics are being slowed by the governments and FDA efforts to control the public's actions. If you listen to doctor's on the front line you will see that we can control this disease much more effectively than we are. This can results in overcoming the problems with hospitals that we are being led to believe are occurring. A quick look at the Texas hospital situation shows that as of yesterday there are 10.5K covid confirmed patients in Texas hospitals with a total bed capacity of 62.8K. Does not seem like a covid disaster to me. I don't have any idea of long term effects and as you point out, many virus infections have long lasting effects. To this point, I just want to remind you to remember where this came from. Don't get mad at me and people that question these irresponsible bureaucrats, get pissed at China and start demanding that they be held responsible for the millions that died. If you want to throw Fauci in there for his backdoor funding of this research, I am good with that also.
"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"
Best quote I've heard in a long while. Love it.
Oh Please!
It costs less to prevent disease, than it does to treat disease. Agree, or disagree?
God help us gang, what the hell is wrong with you all. There's only been 37 million cases in the US and only 635.5 million dead. "It's just the flu." And for freaking cripes sake, get a grip and place the blame where it belongs, get angry at China and at Fauci...it's all their fault.
May someone have mercy on your poor pathetic soul Lawrence because it sure as hell won't be me. Get in line with the rest of the charlatan's preaching their nonsense. You'll fit right it.